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OfflineMisanthrope
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4823911 - 10/19/05 06:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hell was simply invented to keep people in line. The population believed they were going to hell if they killed someone or had gay sex, where they would burn in eternal hellfire. Allot of the realigns have this "good boy/girl, bad boy/girl mentality. People would have to get on their knees and confess there sins, constantly worship this all knowing being in the sky that has complete control over everything.
Is it really a coincidence that the government directly benefits from these realigns? if everyone in USA was Christan this would be good news for the dominating personalities that run our country, just like it was good news back in the day for the kings and queens.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4825292 - 10/19/05 02:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

taking the concept of hell literally is stupid and bad for your health.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4825912 - 10/19/05 04:16 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Crunchy, good people have to be extra tested, because life is that what counts


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Misanthrope]
    #4826539 - 10/19/05 06:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hell may have been "invented," but not by human beings. This is a matter of metaphysics, not human psychology. Your imagination of Hell might be of your invention, but the possibility of realms of experience have been posited in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, ancient Egypt, ancient Mesopotamia, etc., etc. I have tasted Heavenly realms, and the most Hellish has been reliving the birth experience, but I am willing to make the leap of faith that there are terrible states of being of a metaphysical order.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4827546 - 10/19/05 11:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
The state of gnostic/mystic/pneumatic is not one of beliefs, but Source-of-Moment experiences applied to moment-to-moment reality. It is to become like God for the sake of others, instead of attempting to charm God for one's one sake - which is the more fundamentalist-psychic approach to spirituality (or attempts to be spiritual). What comes from ecstatic mystical discorporation (gnosis) is an incorporation if 'knowledge in action' or compassion in action. The mystic becomes a faceless agent of the compassion of God, free from psychological archetypes and dogmas like Heaven/Hell and Reward/Punishment. And these are not a "set of beliefs" eithers. Carl Gustav Jung, who extensively explored metaphysics and the symbolism of archetypes was once asked whether he believed in God by a BBC reported. His subversive and timely response: "I don't need to believe, I know God exists." At a certain point in spiritual development, one realizes that salvation is a solitary persuit, not a guideline. Once one becomes pneumatic in their spiritual intuition, attempting to fathom existence without the divine reality is impossible. The relationship between God and psychological-typical 'believers' is blind and unshelled. The relationship between God and an unbeliever in post-mortem provision is simply non-existent. Some may believe in the divine, some may not - but the mystic is "emptied flesh-ego made divine-ego" so to speak. The mystic is the only middle-ground between the divine and the flesh.




This just sounds like consuming self-delusion and egotism. :shrug:

Suddenly people that babble about fantastical beings and being the conduit of knowledge and love from that being are labeled, "mystic"?  Forget dogma...it still sounds crazy.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4828386 - 10/20/05 03:49 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

There are essentially two egos - or conscious identities. The ego that comes from physical matter, and the divine ego/ground of being. The physical ego becomes destroyed at physical death, and unless one has learned to abandon the ego of the flesh, their consciousness and existence as they know it will die along with physical. It is the living tragedy in the eyes of God. Jesus said in Gospel of Thomas, "I mourn for every soul that does not come into the light.". It is not about condemnation, but rather death - the death of consciousness that comes with failing to identify with the eternal self. While the Divine Reality is aware (the awareness of God can be translated as the love of God) of the lives of such people who are unaware of eternity, the Divine Reality does not live through them. The goal of the pneumatic is simply to abandon the ego that stems from physical matter to replace it with the living, divine ego. You have mentioned 'egotism'. Egotism is an inflation of the physical self, external identity, etc. I have heard it called the 'the refuting ego', that is, an egotist is constantly trying to refute the egos of others. It is the opposite condition of those of the inner tradition, whether gnostics, kabbalists, sufis, and mystics. The human condition is not a random one. It is one in stages. Many pass through these stages intuitively, others unfortunately become stuck in certain stages in the development of consciousness, intently. Fundamentalist religiousity has no more interest in penetrating the divine mystery than a materialist who equate their physical existence as a human being to that of an ant. Those with an honest humility can achieve a conscious relationship with God, the divine the reality. Beyond that, those with a sincere desire to understand the immense mystery that is Eternal Love/Compassion will find themselves in the grips of privileged knowledge. This knowledge has nothing to do with ego games or refutation, but rather it is the pearl that the seeker of truth is looking for - for his own sake, for his own understanding of his solitary salvation. It has nothing to do with 'drawing straws' with others, a domain reserved for the fundamentalist-literalist mind set that masquerades spiritual elitism as righteousness. It is comparable to siblings trying to win the love of their parents over one another. A mystic does not claim that he is saved while others are not. He only affirms his own salvation.


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


Edited by Unagipie (10/20/05 04:18 AM)


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4828426 - 10/20/05 04:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
There are essentially two egos - or conscious identities. The ego that comes from physical matter, and the divine ego/ground of being.




That's a huge assumption and I don't think the "Jaws" shark could swallow it.


Quote:

The physical ego becomes destroyed at physical, and unless one has learned to abandon the ego of the flesh, their consciousness and existence as they know it will die along with physical. It is the living tragedy in the eyes of God. Jesus said in Gospel of Thomas, "I mourn for every soul that does not come into the light.". It is not about condemnation, but rather death - the death of consciousness that comes with failing to identify with the eternal self. In the sense that Christ "mourns", while the Divine Reality is aware (the awareness of God can be translated as the love of God) of the lives of such people who are unaware of eternity, the Divine Reality does not live through them. The goal of the pneumatic is simply to abandon the ego that stems from physical matter to replace it with the living, divine ego. You have mentioned 'egotism'. Egotism is an inflation of the physical self, external identity, etc. I have heard it called the 'the refuting ego', that is, an egotist is constantly trying to refute the egos of others. It is the opposite condition of those of the inner tradition, whether gnostics, kabbalists, sufis, and mystics.




I haven't read the gospel of Thomas. I take issue with a "gnostic" quoting a translated text that was transcribed--many years after the conversation/speaking took place--from memory perhaps by a writer who had an interest that twisted the meaning/recollection of the spoken words due to societal/spiritual pressures.
I mean, religion is politics. You want your shit to be spread because you believe, so of course you'll spin it to fit your accepted worldview.

Quote:

The human condition is not a random one. It is one in stages. Many pass through these stages intuitively, others unfortunately become stuck in certain stages in the development of consciousness, intently. Fundamentalist religiousity has no more interest in penetrating the divine mystery than materialist who equate their physical existence as a human being to that of an ant. Those with an honest humility can achieve a conscious relationship with God, the divine the reality. Beyond that, those with a sincere desire to understand the immense mystery that is Eternal Love/Compassion will find themselves in the grips of privileged knowledge. This knowledge has nothing to do with ego games or refutation, but rather it is the pearl that the seeker of truth is looking for - for his own sake, for his own understanding of his solitary salvation. It has nothing to do with 'drawing straws' with others, a domain reserved for the fundamentalist-literalist mind set that masquerades spiritual elitism as righteousness. It is comparable to siblings trying to win the love of their parents over one another. A mystic does not claim that he is saved while others are not. He only affirms his own salvation.





Fine. I don't care about what "gnostics" or "mystics" claim for themselves.

Don't fuck with me and don't fuck with the empirical, "rational" world system of living we have to get along with one another in, and, I have no problem. I have a problem with fundamentalists that impose fantasies onto political and social policies for others--that only breeds conflict. Real-world situations tend to spit on the face of doctrine or divinely-inspired understandings of our shared world.


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4828451 - 10/20/05 04:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I will simply leave it at that. I have nothing to prove, but in the spirit of discussion I will relate how I have came to understand reality. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. I didn't even make this thread, I'm simply replying. A preclusion such as "don't fuck with the empirical" kind of escapes the purpose of discussion in SM&P in the first place.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4828515 - 10/20/05 05:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow! Looks like something I mighta written!


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: Unagipie]
    #4832879 - 10/21/05 01:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
I will simply leave it at that. I have nothing to prove, but in the spirit of discussion I will relate how I have came to understand reality. I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. I didn't even make this thread, I'm simply replying. A preclusion such as "don't fuck with the empirical" kind of escapes the purpose of discussion in SM&P in the first place.




Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Wow! Looks like something I mighta written!




I guess this is the wrong forum for me, then.  :smirk:
I like talking about this sort of thing, but I don't listen too well to schizophrenics, either. 

And that's not an insult--that's an analogy to a subjective experience.

I don't like the flower that blooms from the root thinking of the proclaimed "gnostic" experience.  So I offer a rationale to cut the roots out before mid-summer.

But, this isn't my forum and I'll only get into trouble here.  Trust me, I know.  :smirk:

Gnosticism just sounds like a euphemism for egotism or "The knowing silent nod." 

That's cool if you get by with this approach. 

I guess I've spoken enough with Ziddy outside of this forum to doubt, in a profound way, his ideas about gnostics.  But I haven't spoken much with Markos, so, I'll leave it at that. 

:sun:

Take it easy.  Ythan allowed me access to this forum, so I can't get too honest or I'll get some nasty retribution.  :smile:  He was nice that way and I don't want to go back on our understanding. 


:rockon:


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4832940 - 10/21/05 01:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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OfflineTheQueen
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4832949 - 10/21/05 01:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The kinds of hell i remember seeing as a child where all the dirty thoughts dressed in leather and lacy thongs.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: I wonder about hell [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4832964 - 10/21/05 02:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Regardless who you've talked to about gnosticism, research it objectively for yourself in your own time at your own pace and just reflect on its elaboration of mythic, universal truths. Parables have always spoke volumes, and the ardent religious traditions have many as they exoteric channels of esoteric realities.

Peace.  :sun:


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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