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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4619861 -

Quote:
The REAL truth is (outside beliefs of people) is that nobody owns anything really


Speak for yourself.

I own my eyeglasses and my watch. I own the food in my refrigerator. I own the refrigerator, too. I own my bicycle and my clothes. I own the medication in my medicine cabinet, but not the cabinet itself... that is owned by my landlord. I just rent it.

I own the computer upon which I am typing this post.



Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4619896 -

Phred said:
Quote:
The REAL truth is (outside beliefs of people) is that nobody owns anything really


Speak for yourself.

I own my eyeglasses and my watch. I own the food in my refrigerator. I own the refrigerator, too. I own my bicycle and my clothes. I own the medication in my medicine cabinet, but not the cabinet itself... that is owned by my landlord. I just rent it.

I own the computer upon which I am typing this post.



Phred


then who owns you?
You are a piece of matter just like your watch. One atom can not own another.

And besides, what is "owning" anyway? someone steals your watch, then he owns it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4619901 -

If Marshal Law were established, the government owns it and can take it all from you. As you have witnessed, nature owns it if it wants to claim it. I agree with wood. Fuck, some people don't even own their own freaking sanity or bodies-see abortion morality thread.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4619940 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
If Marshal Law were established, the government owns it and can take it all from you. As you have witnessed, nature owns it if it wants to claim it. I agree with wood. Fuck, some people don't even own their own freaking sanity or bodies-see abortion morality thread.



Boy this forum is like a giant virtual asylum.

why don't we all cut all this crap, and go fishing, or trainwatching, or whatever. This forum is a proof that thinking is a waste of energy.

I can't believe everyone here thinks they are RIGHT, when we are all a bunch of fools like cats chasing their tails. Brain masturbation, loops of bullshit. etc.

this is not directed at you personally jiggy, I'm speaking about the forum in general. It's ridiculous


You know those talk radio shows in GTA games. Well this forum is EXACTLY like that. A whole bunch of people speaking in an ugly disonance, each pushing their own ridiculous ideas and thinking they are right. God help this planet


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4619948 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
itstarssaddam said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
but thinking for the purpuse of survival of self may be damaging for other people, which makes it a very limited and ineficient way of thinking, one one hand the humanity gains (those who steal get something( , on the other hand it loses (those who had the things now lost them), and you are back where you were.


Even if it is damaging for other people, this doesn't necessarilly mean that it is an inefficient way of thinking.  That is an opinion that would be relative to the situation.  This is why it is a "struggle" for survival.  Some will gain, some will lose, it is inevitable.


It is ineficient for humanity, of course it is efficient for those who think less than humanity (who think family, state, gang etc.) , but such thinking is on teenage level of brain development anyway, so no point in discussing it.


There is no binding contract that states that myself or any other human beings are required to consider the well being of humanity.  In a struggle for one's survival, your main concern will be just that, YOUR own survival.  While it might be nice to believe that it is instinctual behavior in humans to perform selfless actions in life threatening situations, it simply isn't true.  :thumbup: :whatever:

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4619959 -

itstarssaddam said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
itstarssaddam said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
but thinking for the purpuse of survival of self may be damaging for other people, which makes it a very limited and ineficient way of thinking, one one hand the humanity gains (those who steal get something( , on the other hand it loses (those who had the things now lost them), and you are back where you were.


Even if it is damaging for other people, this doesn't necessarilly mean that it is an inefficient way of thinking.  That is an opinion that would be relative to the situation.  This is why it is a "struggle" for survival.  Some will gain, some will lose, it is inevitable.


It is ineficient for humanity, of course it is efficient for those who think less than humanity (who think family, state, gang etc.) , but such thinking is on teenage level of brain development anyway, so no point in discussing it.


There is no binding contract that states that myself or any other human beings are required to consider the well being of humanity.  In a struggle for one's survival, your main concern will be just that, YOUR own survival.  While it might be nice to believe that it is instinctual behavior in humans to perform selfless actions in life threatening situations, it simply isn't true.  :thumbup: :whatever:


yea


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4620627 -

OldWoodSpecter writes:

Quote:
then who owns you?


I own me. Who owns you?

Quote:
You are a piece of matter just like your watch.


"Just like" my watch? Not even close. I am a sentient, rational, self-conscious, volitional living entity. My watch is none of those things -- it is a manufactured artifact.

Quote:
One atom can not own another.


We are not discussing atoms. We are discussing humans and their possessions.

Quote:
And besides, what is "owning" anyway?


It is standard practice when making controversial claims such as "nobody owns anything really" to define your terms. Please give us OldWoodSpecter's definition of "own". Clearly it differs from the definition accepted by the majority of native English speakers.

Quote:
someone steals your watch, then he owns it


Someone kills you. Does that mean you never lived? Someone steals your watch. Does that mean it was never yours?




Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620679 -

someone steals your watch, it means it WAS yours, not it is his, unless you find out who stoled it and take it back.

A watch is a watch, a piece of matter, nowhere in the atoms is it written that it is yours.

The whole owning thing probably started something like this:
a bunch of monkeys came to a piece of land, and decided it is theirs, then when others came they scared them away.

Owning is based on convincing others that they can not use the item you "own". If you can convince them, you own it, if you fail to convince them and they take it, then you don't own it.

When you have a car, you believe that all this metal, that used to be in the ground before it was dug up, is now yours and yours alone.
Of course it is not nice of others to steal the car because they would hurt your feelings and your beliefs.
But in truth, what makes the car yours? It isn't anything imprinted in the material car, it is a pattern in your head. Owning is a bunch of mental circuits in your head, and heads of others. The car has nothing to do with it because the concept of owning is abstract.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620682 -

Phred said:
Someone kills you. Does that mean you never lived? Someone steals your watch. Does that mean it was never yours?

Phred


that is a poor analogy. I never said when someone steals something from you that you NEVER owend it. You did. But at the moment you don't .


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4620694 -

OldWoodSpecter writes:

Quote:
someone steals your watch, it means it WAS yours, not it is his, unless you find out who stoled it and take it back.


Incorrect. It's my watch. He may have it in his pocket at the moment, but it isn't his watch. It's my watch.

Quote:
A watch is a watch, a piece of matter, nowhere in the atoms is it written that it is yours.


We aren't speaking of atoms. We're speaking of humans and their possessions. Do you not grasp the essential difference?

Quote:
Owning is based on convincing others that they can not use the item you "own". If you can convince them, you own it, if you fail to convince them and they take it, then you don't own it.


"Might makes right", then? Ownership depends on persuasiveness? Is this the definition of "own" I requested you to provide?

Quote:
The car has nothing to do with it because the concept of owning is abstract.


Many concepts are abstract. That doesn't make them invalid. The concept of mathematics is abstract. So is the concept of education. For that matter, so is the concept of "furniture".


Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620704 -

But what makes the watch yours? What does it mean when something is yours?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4620716 -

OldWoodSpecter writes:

Quote:
I never said when someone steals something from you that you NEVER owend it. You did.


What you said was -- "The REAL truth is (outside beliefs of people) is that nobody owns anything really"

"Owns" in that sentence is present tense. Yet now you are saying I did own my watch. How can that be if "nobody owns anything really"? Are you saying ownership is possible up till the point someone decides to seize your stuff at which time the concept becomes invalid?


Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620725 -

Quote:
Phred said
Quote:
Wood said; You are a piece of matter just like your watch.


"Just like" my watch? Not even close. I am a sentient, rational, self-conscious, volitional living entity. My watch is none of those things -- it is a manufactured artifact.


For all you know Phred, some ET's out there think of you as being a manufactured artifact. If people want to compare us to being nothing more then biological computers with no soul, then it's easy to consider something manufactured us just like we manufactured computers. Even if it's just nature, she can take your ass out and will someday.

And if we have soul, then something manufactured that and we belong to it.

You sure seem sure about this owning yourself, your mind and body and possessions stuff Phred.

If you own your life, then why can't you keep from dying?

We like to think we have control of ownership over so much when, really, it just looks that way until something more powerful comes along and takes it away from us and it can at any time and what control of ownership do you have over that?

As soon as I put a gun to your head, I own you. By the way, I stole your own gun to own you with and now I also own your gun. :cool:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4620733 -

OldWoodSpecter writes:

Quote:
But what makes the watch yours? What does it mean when something is yours?


We clearly are talking about two different concepts of ownership. You claim no one can own anything, apparently because there is always the possibility someone else will seize it from you.

If I find a chunk of flint on the shore of a river, fashion it into a blade, and use it to cut a branch from a tree with which to produce a walking stick, do I own that flint knife? Do I own that walking stick? If not, why not?



Phred


--------------------

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4620756 -

gettingjiggywithit writes:

Quote:
For all you know Phred, some ET's out there think of you as being a manufactured artifact.


For all I know, my eyes follow the text of this sentence because they are being manipulated by extremely tiny invisible monkeys inside my head.

Even assuming there are ETs (for which there is not a scintilla of evidence, but let's pretend there are for a minute) their belief that I am a manufactured object is erroneous.

Quote:
If people want to compare us to being nothing more then biological computers with no soul, then it's easy to consider something manufactured us just like we manufactured computers.


It's easy to consider all kinds of things. See my invisible monkey example. Doesn't make them true.

Quote:
Even if it's just nature, she can take your ass out and will someday.


And this shows I don't own anything how, exactly?

Quote:
And if we have soul, then something manufactured that and we belong to it.


What is your basis for asserting souls have been manufactured?

Quote:
If you own your life, then why can't you keep from dying?


The fact that I own myself doesn't mean I am also immortal.

Quote:
We like to think we have control of ownership over so much when, really, it just looks that way until something more powerful comes along and takes it away from us and it can at any time and what control of ownership do you have over that?


The fact that a flood can destroy what I own doesn't mean I don't own it. It just means that I as a mortal entity am not omnipotent enough to protect all my possessions from every eventuality.

Quote:
As soon as I put a gun to your head, I own you.


Incorrect. All it means is you can terminate my existence sooner that it would have terminated otherwise.



Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620797 -

Phred,

You are in the philosophy and spirituality forum after all. In the pub, you do own everything you bought and payed for and have rights to yourself and belongings.

Meaning changes in here. In here, we discuss how there is no meaning to anything save the meaning we impart. Therefore, what does ownership really mean is the question?

The answer? Nothing, save for the meaning you give it and thats you real.

If you disagree then you must know the meaning of life and you must be sure there is one.

Do share the answer because it's the billion dollar question of S&P. :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4620883 -

gettinjiggywithit writes:

Quote:
Meaning changes in here.


If by "meaning" you mean "definitions", this is why I learned long ago to request a definition of terms. Nothing more frustrating than spending a few hours discussing a point with someone only to eventually discover their understanding of the term "freedom" (for example) is some uniquely bizarre and idiosyncratic interpretation no one else you have ever met subscribes to.

I take it you believe the concept of "ownership" is an invalid one. You apparently believe that unless every human is omnipotent enough to defend his stuff from all comers -- including even Category 5 hurricanes -- then there is no such thing as property. The clothes you dress your children with each day aren't theirs or even yours. They're... well... nobody's. They're illusory. Your children's lives aren't their own because they are not immortal. Their lives instead belong to... well... nobody.

Quote:
In here, we discuss how there is no meaning to anything save the meaning we impart.


In here, a lot of nonsense gets discussed. Doesn't mean the nonsensical has any relationship to reality.

Quote:
If you disagree then you must know the meaning of life and you must be sure there is one.


I don't need to know the meaning of life to know the glasses through which I peer at my computer screen and the computer screen itself are mine.



Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4620969 -

I won't argue you with that what you beleive you own you do. It's your in the traditional sense. But why bother discussing that. Its a commonly beleived given.

However, you said that much of what gets discussed in here doesn't relate to reality.

A lot of what we discuss is whose version of reality is the real one? Is Bush a great president or a sucky one?

Is yours the real one Phred? Do tell us what is the true reality so we can be done with discussing it and know like you do. That is the just under a billion dollar question here in S&P.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4621099 -

Quote:
A lot of what we discuss is whose version of reality is the real one? Is Bush a great president or a sucky one?

Is yours the real one Phred?


As far as it goes, yep. There are aspects of reality I remain uncertain about and other aspects I expect I will never unravel (the nature of consciousness, for one) but I know that my life is mine and your life is yours, and I sure as hell know the difference between a human and a watch.

I also know that trying to dismiss someone's argument addressing a narrowly-defined topic (i.e. ownership) by scoffing that the person with whom you are debating doesn't know "the meaning of life" or claiming he can be cowed by having a stolen gun put to his head or by jeering that he can't keep from dying is intellectual dishonesty of the most egregious sort. I'm frankly more than a bit surprised you choose to stoop to such nonsense.

When you are prepared to debate honestly, let me know and we can resume.




Phred


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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Phred]
    #4621142 -

Ahhhhh there's the difference. You came here looking for debate. I come here looking for discussion to broaden my mind. Perhaps that should have been defined with what the meaning of this dialog was about first. :confused: I think it was old wood looking for a debate. He lives on the otherside of the planet and is probably asleep now.

If stooping low means broadening common sense understandings into uncommon common sense understandings then, yes, I am guilty as charged. Spank me hard. :spank:

If you are surprised I went anywhere, then you must've had expectations for where it is I go.

In S&P we discuss a lot about how expectations lead to suffering when they go unmet so it's best not to have them and to let life unfold in the flow of the natural course of things.

Anyway, if you thought this was a debate, that means you were out to be right and win. Okay Phred, you are right and you win. :kiss:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (09/05/05 01:05 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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