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Anonymous

The Ownership/Theft Paradox
    #1651995 - 06/21/03 10:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Property ownership is a sham. Aside from your body, you do not really "own" anything. You do not own the atoms that make up the materials that make up your car. You simply have an agreement with society and the state that it "belongs" to you insofar that another person must have your permission to use it. You may have a deed to a house. The house is not really "yours." It just is. You use the materials that make up the concept of a "house" for privacy, protection from the natural elements, as well as other purposes. But those materials are not under your possession. They are free to do what they want. However, since nonliving materials do not just move or do things on their own, they are left to the whims of other people also. A better example that this applies to is pets. You may have a dog or cat or snake or giant panda bear roaming around your residence. These animals have their own free will. They are free to do what they wish. You may feed them, bathe them, and otherwise care very deeply for them, yet they still do not belong to you.

Property ownership developed as a way to control the chaos that would ensue if we were to realize that everything simply is, that nothing belongs to anybody and that we have free will to do whatever we want with whatever. Property ownership keeps society neat and orderly so that there is no confusion over who is able to use what. It is a necessary evil, so to say.

Herein lies the problem: The majority of humanity (myself included) holds as part of their subjective morality that theft is wrong. We have been taught since we were toddlers that certain things belong to certain people, and that we must ask their permission to take or use something that's theirs, else we are stealing. If we do not truly possess anything, then why do we consider it wrong for someone else to take or use something that is "ours" without our permission?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: ]
    #1652065 - 06/21/03 10:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well, since we have free will, we can do what we want, no philosophy of possession or whatever owns us so if we want to keep something to ourselves then it's our right.

Things must have been different back when the items you owned were things that kept you alive. We've come so far since then that the whole ownership thing seems ridiculous.. 99% of the products out there are worthless in the hunter-gatherer sense so who cares if somebody steals them? Take cars for example. They are evil instruments of death and torture used only to maim pedestrians and promote consenting slaves to become cyborgs. Case closed.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Dogomush]
    #1652379 - 06/22/03 12:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"Property ownership developed as a way to control the chaos that would ensue if we were to realize that everything simply is, that nothing belongs to anybody and that we have free will to do whatever we want with whatever. Property ownership keeps society neat and orderly so that there is no confusion over who is able to use what. It is a necessary evil, so to say."


riiiiiiiight. so, heres a scenario. humans need shelter to survive, so you work your ASS off for 3 months cutting down trees and making organic cement mix and finally you construct a nice little abode for you and your family to live in. (you dont think that you have a justified claim to that peice of matter?) and then all of a sudden an enlightened sage comes along and burns down your house, in order to teach you a really profound spiritual lesson about "ownership", then winter comes and your wife and children freeze to death.

but youre not mad because youve realized that "ownership" is a scam?

I disagree, a persons ownership of a peice of material symbolizes the hard work that made it possible for that person to own that material (of course there are exceptions, but this proves true for the majority). of course the concept of ownership if completely mental, but that is obvious. to imply that ownership is somehow a negative thing is ridiculous, societies and cultures could not function without "ownership", even anarchistic hunter-gatherers believe in ownership, its a logistical reality.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Dogomush]
    #1652577 - 06/22/03 02:04 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They are evil instruments of death and torture used only to maim pedestrians and promote consenting slaves to become cyborgs. Case closed.


LMFAO!!!!  :tongue2: 


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: ]
    #1652593 - 06/22/03 02:10 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think this is a paradox at all. I just don't buy that my couch has free will, just not the ablitity to excersise it.

To me this is similar (I am inebriated now, so I may change my mind later) to what Communism preaches. Which boils down to which is better capitalism or communism.

I think I will start another thread on that.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652654 - 06/22/03 02:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Political ideas are never the same as the systems which claim them.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: ]
    #1653244 - 06/22/03 10:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You haven't thought this through all the way.

Humans cannot survive without property. That's not an opinion, that's fact. To demonstrate this to yourself, pick a human (any human), strip him naked, and every time he acquires something (anything), take it from him immediately. In a very short time that human will be dead.

The concept of "property" is not an arbitrary one, it is a recognition of the laws of the universe as they apply to human existence. Property is nothing more than concretized human effort. Humans cannot exist without expending effort. To say that humans have no right to property is to say that humans have no right to exist.

pinky


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Phred]
    #1653575 - 06/22/03 02:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

what people fail to realize is that many many many a healthy society has thrived under a no ownership credo. take hawaiians, for instance. I agree with max headroom, the possessions possess you.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Malachi]
    #1653893 - 06/22/03 05:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Why is the pink shark always so god damn dead on?

Thanks.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineVulture
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Sclorch]
    #1653971 - 06/22/03 06:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

it all comes back to "dp unto others as you would have them do unto you"

no matter if something is really "yours" or not. If they take something that you have worked to get than you will be upset. Therefore taking something is something you would not have them do unto you. Therefore it is not right.


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

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Offlinelateralus
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Vulture]
    #1655027 - 06/23/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think 'ownership' is detrimental simply because it seperates the 'haves' form the 'have nots'. Ownership is an integral part of the whole 'dominator society', it propagates negative things in a society. Greed is a good example.

Ownership takes the term 'sharing' and completely negates it. Many societies throughout history have made it a point to share everything they own rather than seperate things and allot certain things to certain individuals.

The measure of a man should be how generous he is, not how much more he has than other people. Our western society(usa) prides itself on ownership. Our seperation of the rich and the poor is so huge it is ridiculous. We could feed every starving person on the planet with only a pittance from the top moneymakers in this country. Why don't we do this? Because 'ownership' is one of the things we pride ourselves on... doesn't seem like something to be proud of to me.



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OfflineGrav
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: lateralus]
    #1655477 - 06/23/03 05:38 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Oh no... lateralus... its not as simple as that.

you see..
They can't just give their money away, even if it is a small %... because... um... well, they have their reasons.. good ones, im sure!

Um, it would ruin the whole idealogy of working for your survival, if you just gave away money. the starving people are being taught a valuable lesson. Work hard, and you can own a mansion as well. Why are you libbies always trying to take away from the working man???

[/extreme sarcasm]


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: lateralus]
    #1655513 - 06/23/03 06:01 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ownership takes the term 'sharing' and completely negates it.




On the contrary, sharing becomes more valuable when you share something you own.

Quote:

Many societies throughout history have made it a point to share everything they own rather than seperate things and allot certain things to certain individuals.




Yeah, that's how we handle a lot of the informal economy in my family. But it only works for things that everyone agrees upon and where there are no conflicts of interest. But from time to time there are conflicts of interest even within the family, and it's much more convenient to resolve such conflicts by assigning specific ownership rights than by having physical fights or by letting one authority dictate what is the only legitimate interest.

I think even if I cloned myself and associated only with my clones, there would arise conflicts of interest after a while, simply because my interests vary from time to time and from situation to situation.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Phred]
    #1655619 - 06/23/03 08:18 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well this human could still use things without owning them. If he fashons a spear it dosnt have to be his property. and if he kuills an animals, it is not his


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Ownership/Theft Paradox [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1656101 - 06/23/03 04:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sole Worthy- go back and reread PSM's post. He addresses your point explicitly.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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