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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Loc: Texas
the right of ownership of ones body
    #7565577 - 10/27/07 02:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

on the one hand... i respect the right to do with ones body as one wants... but on the other hand i see that sometimes i do not respect this right

for example, is it okay to allow a small child to smoke cigarettes?

personally i dont think it is because they are unable to appreciate the health risk involved and because our society has fiduciary responsibilities that supersede

but since i have made a distinction there is now a gray area... i cannot say that this right is universal because we all have "a body" yet some bodies have this right and some do not... and if i follow this line of reasoning i realize that this cannot properly be called a right at all, at least as i have defined it in my mind

yet the idea that one has the right to do whatever to ones own body appeals to me

therefore (i think...) perhaps that 6-year-old really does have the right, just as i do, to smoke cigarettes and drink hard liquor if they want

yet that idea does not appeal to me whatever

what to do... what to do...


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565602 - 10/27/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7565616 - 10/27/07 03:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i agree with you

should this right be rephrased then?

"one can do whatever to ones body, so long as they understand the consequences"

OR

"one can do whatever to ones body, so long as they are capable of understanding the consequences"


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565644 - 10/27/07 03:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Who gets to decide who understands the consequences? This seems like a rather vague way to determine rights. Could some religious maniac decide that an adult who chooses premarital sex doesn't undestand the consequences (hell) of thier actions and subsequently repress thier agency? 'For thier own good' is always the reasoning behind strict moralistic societies, but this tends to be a mask for power's own biases and attempt towards furthering total social control.

ps- what's with your signature, dude? Who's that guy and why does he deserve to be killed?


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7565665 - 10/27/07 03:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

you are absolutely right

the conditions attached to both statements are difficult to satisfy absolutely (if not impossible)

:frown:


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7565703 - 10/27/07 03:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"one can do whatever to ones body, if one is at least 18 years old"


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7566022 - 10/27/07 08:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is a reason society is called "Big Brother" by some, or "the Nanny state". Brothers, nannys, and parents have the right, by association, to guide the actions of those not old enough to make decisions for themselves.

It's a very natural thing to do, and most mammals exert some control over the actions of their young. It's all gotten rather foggy because the state generally appreciates this natural right in it's capacity to produce results which it finds desirable (which change over time), and when parents cannot measure up, the state jumps in.

Humans are odd though because we've taken pack mentality to extremes which other animals are not capable of. Problem is, the state is no better a parent than the average neurotic parent. It sees pro action towards self injury as preventative action towards injury of others, and will impose itself on the individual without being sure of the outcome.

In some ways, this is true, even natural, but there is no end to the amount of influence the state can have. It will not be happy until there is no power outside it's reach. Personally, I think we're fighting natural selection. Live and let die, or experience genetic regression. It's not the people the state wishes to save. It is the state viciously defending itself. Perhaps your desire to prevent a child, which is not you own, from smoking, is not much different?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Rahz]
    #7566938 - 10/27/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

perhaps


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OfflineBoots
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7567916 - 10/27/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

These questions are hard to answer. In some cases, having authority look out for you works out, but in other cases, authority has no clue.


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OfflineNova


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7569559 - 10/28/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
therefore (i think...) perhaps that 6-year-old really does have the right, just as i do, to smoke cigarettes and drink hard liquor if they want

yet that idea does not appeal to me whatever





When I think about this I think about the war on drugs. It's obviously some authority telling us what I can and cannot do with my body. But as much as I would like to go to the 'acid and heroin depot' everyday to get my fix... it just doesn't seem right or that it would work out for society.

I think we don't necessarily have the right to tell the youth or people in general what to do, but in some cases have the responsibility to use our experience to help guide naive people.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7569696 - 10/28/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why would one need to own, what one are/be/is?


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Gomp]
    #7571487 - 10/28/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ownership is maybe the wrong word

the right to self-determine may be a better way

these thoughts make me uneasy


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571567 - 10/29/07 12:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

As they say "rules are made to be broken". The state can draw lines which say when someone is deemed responsible enough to take control of things like this. This can be useful, at least it puts into peoples minds that children need to be protected. But each individual is different so people mature at different rates. If your underage, and you feel your ready to experiment, and the government says your not, you just break the rules like I'm sure we all did. Rules just stop society as a whole from going into compete chaos, but they should be broken at an individuals whim so as to not make it go into complete mindless conformity.


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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7571740 - 10/29/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.




/signed

Exactly what I was thinking.


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7571829 - 10/29/07 03:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.




This statement is so vauge that it simply could not represent the nature of reality. The fact is, children could be developed enough to make decisions like that, and some individauls may never have the right experience to come to the conclusions that would ensure they were responsible for themselves. In fact, it could be said that, if children were not to make decisions like that, they could never have the experience necessary to form their own conclusions.

The fact is, the right to "ownership" of one's own body is one's own, regardless of one's age or relative sense of development and experience. I think it is likely that, as most human beings do not regard children as responsible entities that make their own decisions and are responsible for themself, most humans never grow to the point that they are truly responsible for themselves, as human beings develop relative to their interaction with reality. 

The fact that some might look to a child and conclude that, as they are the child's parent, they have the right of ownership, they are more inclined to attempt to control than guide. Parents cannot make decisions for children, but they can build relationships that provide a foundation of trust, as well as influencing the child's interaction with our environment.

Children are sovereign as well. :sun:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7571851 - 10/29/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

children are controlled, the question is whether this is justifiable


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571860 - 10/29/07 04:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
children are controlled




Not anymore than anyone is controlled, really. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7571867 - 10/29/07 05:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i admire that you can state that so clearly


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7571881 - 10/29/07 05:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

My statement was vague? No more vague than any other statement. But putting that aside. Children should be raised in a controlled environment so that they can get there bearings before being exposed to potentially life and death decisions. Because i can almost guarantee that if they are, they will die. Human brains aren't even fully developed until after the teenage years. A child has no appreciation for their own vulnerabilities, these they have to be carefully exposed too. It would be like putting someone in the water who hadn't learned how to swim, they would almost certainly drown. Instead you tell them how to swim, and let them learn in a place where the dangers are limited.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7573163 - 10/29/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Normally, children don't enjoy smoking cigarettes.
So why adults do ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7573505 - 10/29/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is a moral issue. Morals are an opinion.

The DNA overlord of which we are all apart of cares not if a child smokes a cigarette for DNA has millions more children and will counter the effects of the cigarette through evolution.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7574457 - 10/29/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
My statement was vague? No more vague than any other statement.




:rofl2:

No, your statement was vauge, and not any less vauge than "any other statement". :smirk: I've already demonstrated exactly how your statement is vauge and doesn't represent the nature of reality. Instead of simply asserting that your statement is no more vauge than any other statement (itself a vauge statement :lol:), perhaps you could actually respond to what I've asserted regarding your statement? :strokebeard:

Allow me to reiterate, for your convience. You stated that children are not developed enough to make decisions like that. How do you know? What designates that a child, or that children in general, are not developed enough to decide for themselves if they will consume drugs? You go on to state that, once children are adults, they have enough experience to decide for themselves, but this is even more vauge. What designates one as an adult, and how is it determined that, once one is considered an adult, one is necessarily of enough experience to make decisions for themselves?

Who knows? Some children can be more developed than what some would call adults. Experience is experience, and whether or not an individual is a child or an adult does not designate whether or not they have had certain experience.

So, like I said, vauge, even more vauge than any other statement. :shrug:

Quote:


Human brains aren't even fully developed until after the teenage years.




Physical development of brains has what to do with experience, the ability to make decisions, and emotional development? :sherlock:

Quote:


A child has no appreciation for their own vulnerabilities




The same statement can apply to adults, so I fail to comprehend where the distinction between children and adults in regards to the inherent right that a human being is responsible for their human being lies in this statement. :shrug:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7575264 - 10/30/07 01:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You never demonstrated anything, you merely claimed that my statement was vague and didn't reflect reality. Then went on with your own argument. You never said what made my statement vague. I think it was a fairly direct and clear statement.

Any adult who has lived such a strange life as to have the same amount of experience as a child, should also be guided until they are capable of guiding themselves. And by the way the only way i can see an adult existing in that position is if they were institutionalized for most of there life.

Experience obviously takes time. Children are new to this world, it is physically impossible for them to have all the experiences necessary to live without guidance.

It has been shown that humans don't develop the ability to consistently think through there actions till after there teenage years. This can been shown, in car accidents which occur to children around school zones, this is because children are as yet unaware of how small decisions can change their life, their ball roles onto the road, they run out to get it without thinking. Also it is shown in the risk taking behaviour of teenagers.

How can anyone learn something without being taught? Why would you let someone you love walk into a dangerous situation when they have no concept of the consequences? Children are not born with any knowledge of life, we must teach them, it is our responsibility. To me your attitude seems to be one of throwing someone in the deep end and seeing if they can swim.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7575339 - 10/30/07 02:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
You never said what made my statement vague.




Yes I did, twice now. At least the topic is getting a thorough analysis. :smirk:

Let's review.

Quote:

DimensionX said:
Children aren't developed enough to make decisions like that. Once they are adults they have enough experience to come to their own conclusions.




I specifically presented that this statement is vauge. To state that children, as some collective, singular entity, aren't developed to make such decisions, is vauge. Why? Because we are speaking in generalized terms that do not represent the truth that every human being, at every age, has unique experience. It is impossible for you to assert that one child specifically is not developed enough to make decisions like that, because the ability to make a decision has nothing to do with age. Furthermore, it is quite the stretch to assert that, "once one is an adult", one has the capacity to form their own conclusions.

Such broad, generalized terms used in a statement that seeks to assert certain truth. The fact is, children, at any age, do come to their own conclusions. The only question, naturally, is how realistic these conclusions are. Of course, you didn't say that, further contributing to the utter vaugeness of your statement. As a child, which, of course, implies a wide variety of age, further compounding the question of how much experience "a child" has thus far accumulated, further compounding the vauge nature of your statement, I distinctly recall forming all sorts of conclusions, on my own.

Clearly, the question is not of whether or not a child forms their own conclusions, or makes their own decisions, because it is blatantly obvious that children do, as they are human beings. The only question is whether or not their ability to do so is beneficial to their well-being, as the question is regarding whether or not their conclusions and subsequent decisions reflect the nature of reality.

Thus, the question regards experience, through living life, from which a child can gain understanding of reality, through interacting with reality. The assertion that "once they are adults, they have enough experience" is baseless. What constitutes "enough" experience? :strokebeard: Experience cannot be quantified, and it is clearly not the amount of experience that one has, but rather what one gains and understands from the experience one has been privledged with. Simply "being an adult" doesn't substantiate these effects in any way, either.

Quote:


Experience obviously takes time. Children are new to this world, it is physically impossible for them to have all the experiences necessary to live without guidance.




No one lives "without guidance" at any time in their life. We exist in the same state as we always have in this life, the only difference being that we change as we learn and our environment changes as we grow. This is a continual process. We still are children, new to this world. The natural fact that, for most of us, for our first years, our environment is influenced more directly by the decisions of close relatives doesn't change this. We simply benefit from more opportunity to survive and establish more memory. Who knows how able we are to take care of ourselves as a result. We could be overexposed to the environment as children, or underexposed, and each may benefit us or serve as a detriment. :shrug:

Quote:


It has been shown that humans don't develop the ability to consistently think through there actions till after there teenage years.




Another vauge statement, if I dare to suggest as much. What does it mean to "consistently think through their actions", and how has this been shown?
:sherlock:

Quote:


This can been shown, in car accidents which occur to children around school zones, this is because children are as yet unaware of how small decisions can change their life, their ball roles onto the road, they run out to get it without thinking. Also it is shown in the risk taking behaviour of teenagers.




And this is shown in the behavior of adults who consume food that has adverse effects on their health. It is shown in the behavior of adults who intoxicate themselves and expose themselves to situations that threaten their well-being. It is shown in adults who cannot manage their emotional state of being. It is shown in the risk-taking behavior of adults. It is evident in human behavior, wherein adults waste resources and threaten the survival and well-being of our species and others. There is a never-ending multitude of manners in which human beings, of any age, chase their shiny, red ball into the streets.

Age is of no relevance in regards to this. :sorry:

Quote:


How can anyone learn something without being taught? Children are not born with any knowledge of life, we must teach them, it is our responsibility.




Children learn by living life. We cannot live a child's life; thus, we cannot teach them. It is our responsibility to give children the opportunity to learn, by giving them the opportunity to live. The first step, of course, is to respect the fact that children form their own conclusions and make their own decisions. This implies respectful relationships, interactions through which children learn from who we are. The fact that most view children as that which they own, that which they control, is largely why most human beings are unaware of their sovereignity, allowing others to manipulate them to gain power for themselves.

Have I advocated throwing babies into the streets to fend for themselves? Nope. I've advocated respecting the right every human being has to be their own human being, regardless of age, as well as recognizing the true nature of the phenomenon that is being discussed.

Quote:


To me your attitude seems to be one of throwing someone in the deep end and seeing if they can swim.




Not at all; you've simply misconceived my "attitude". :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7575362 - 10/30/07 03:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You have a novel view on parenting. But personally i think it is unrealistic. I think children need to be closely guided, so closely it can become controlling at some points. For example you find them jumping into the drivers seat of your car and playing around with the buttons. You tell them to stop that they might hurt themselves, they say "no!" as children will at times do and they keep on fiddling around. You can try the reasoning approach as much as you want, but alot of the time, unless you tell them with authority they wont listen. I wont let them find out on there own what could happen, because i dont want them to get hurt. And yes at a certain point, this all has to change and you take a purely reasoning approach and if they dont listen that is their choice, you can both find out together whether it is right or wrong. No you cant draw a definite line when this will happen, this must be negotiated between the two of you.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7575463 - 10/30/07 05:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i have to throw this out here

if age has no bearing on the right of an individual to self determine, then it follows that abortion violates the rights of a fetus

however, not allowing abortion violates the rights of the mother

catch-22


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7575495 - 10/30/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It would only be so if the fetus could express it's will to live in an understandable way.
Also the reason why abortion is not being permitted anymore after the first trimester of pregnancy is not because the fetus has reached a level where it can express it's power of making decisions.
So if you want to talk about this matter from a legal POV, the discussion can be entirely different because usually the laws are not representing and respecting the truth regarding human nature.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7575788 - 10/30/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

as a child seeing paint thinner used on white paint, in appearance much like milk, and wanting to drink it

i attempted this several times... perhaps i would be dead had i not been forcibly stopped? i had eaten insects and fertilizer so it is possible i could have drank a large amount

hard to reason with a toddler


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7575880 - 10/30/07 09:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

it seems like, in this case, my rights were violated, and at the same time i am better off because of it

this is troubling to me


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7579648 - 10/31/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
You have a novel view on parenting. But personally i think it is unrealistic.




What have I outlined that you feel is unrealistic? Acknowledging the fact that children make their own decisions and form their own conclusions is as realistic as it comes. I am a proponent of recognizing the nature of reality for what it is observed to be. Last night at work, there was a small child walking behind his parents while shopping. He stopped and watched me carry a ladder with curiousity. He was acting with his own volition.

Quote:


I think children need to be closely guided, so closely it can become controlling at some points.




There is a difference between influencing a child's environment, and "controlling a child", which is a notion that is impossible. Once more, a child forms their own conclusions and makes their own decisions. The nature of mammals is that the environment of the young revolve around their parents. Parents choose the set and setting.

Quote:


For example you find them jumping into the drivers seat of your car and playing around with the buttons. You tell them to stop that they might hurt themselves, they say "no!" as children will at times do and they keep on fiddling around.




Yes, I see this at work all the time too. A child will want to play with something, and the parent will wish to move along. They will tell the child to follow them, and the child will say no, and it almost becomes a shouting match sometimes. I conclude that the relationship between the parent and the child isn't very mature in these instances, especially evident in the behavior of the parent shouting, portraying themselves as nothing but children themselves.

Quote:


You can try the reasoning approach as much as you want, but alot of the time, unless you tell them with authority they wont listen.




Ahh, now we are speculating on something that lies entirely dependent upon the unique nature of the child, their parent, and their relationship. This is something that is so diverse and includes a wide variety of variables that I find this speculation to not represent reality.

Quote:


I wont let them find out on there own what could happen, because i dont want them to get hurt.




Of course, the real question is regarding the degree of harm that the child is being exposed to. Sometimes, with human beings, we simply have to get hurt, so to speak, to learn. We learn through experience, after all. Of course, if there is more than a small risk of harm, clearly it is the responsibility of the parent to ensure their child's safety - no one has implied otherwise.


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7579658 - 10/31/07 07:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
it seems like, in this case, my rights were violated, and at the same time i am better off because of it




No, in that case, your rights were not violated.


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7579667 - 10/31/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I actually think you have alot of good points. I dont want to try and circumvent someones free will, and we do need to make mistakes otherwise we wont learn. But i think this question becomes the most interesting when its thought of in the most extreme circumstances. Is it right to try and stop someone from doing what you are sure will cause them serious harm? Espeacilly when its a child, who has come to rely on you for many of the basic elements of its survival, and also for you to teach them about the world.


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: DimensionX]
    #7579705 - 10/31/07 08:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DimensionX said:
But i think this question becomes the most interesting when its thought of in the most extreme circumstances. Is it right to try and stop someone from doing what you are sure will cause them serious harm?




I think the answer might lie within one's methods of attempting to stop them. If you have an adult friend who plans on embarking on an Artic voyage in the middle of winter with no experience and nothing for supplies but tons of alcohol, I think it wouldn't be right to physically restrain them in a cellar to prevent them from causing themself serious harm, although they probably wouldn't mind it as long as you gave them their alcohol meanwhile. :smirk:

Ultimately, the question as to whether or not it is "right" to intervene must face the reality that there is no right or wrong, only action, and subsequent consequences. :shrug:

Quote:


Espeacilly when its a child, who has come to rely on you for many of the basic elements of its survival, and also for you to teach them about the world.




I think it is definitely easier to determine how to act with children in these situations, because the ability to analyze risk of harm is much more clear-cut - usually the prospect of physical harm from situations they unknowingly present themselves within. A child poised to fall down a flight of stairs because they are ignorant of what will occur, or from a physical inability to effectively navigate the stairs, needs to be swept from harm's way, prevented from entering into harm's way. These types of situations aren't as prevalent with adults, and this is when the lines begin to blur. :wink:


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7581452 - 10/31/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If everyone has the right to do what they want with their body, then why not little children?

Obviously their must be more to it.

If everyone has the universal right to do what they want with their own body, but then children do not, then everyonedoes not have the right to do anything they want with their own body.

It must be concluded then that everyone does not have the right to do what they want with their own body, that whatever right they have is by the same token limited in some aspects.

But where does this right come from? The right to do things with our own bodies is given from God. It can't come from anywhere else. People can legislate laws, but that does not make them rights, or truths. It requires universal ordinance of a Spiritual nature. Nothing else can do it.

SO God gave us the right to do some things to our bodies, but other things we can't, because it's limited in some areas. It's now up to each and every person to use discernment and wisdom to find those boundaries and abide by the universal law.

none of us should be judging others though, even if we see someone doing something we deem unacceptable to their own bodies. Freedom of choice to do right or wrong to their bodies is another universal right, for which every man must stand accountable to God for his own personal actions on his own.


Edited by jonathan_206 (10/31/07 04:12 PM)


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7581474 - 10/31/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SO God gave us the right to do some things to our bodies, but other things we can't, because it's limited in some areas. It's now up to each and every person to use discernment and wisdom to find those boundaries and abide by the universal law.




Which God?  The Christian God?  The Muslim God?  The Greek pantheon of Gods?  The Norse Gods?  The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Even if we take it as fact that a God exists, the multiple interpretations of this so-called universal law make it impossible to decide what God actually wants.  Each worshipping group claims that THEY know the actual desires of God, that THEY have defined universal law, and that everyone else is wrong.

Children have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies.  Parents and guardians sometimes infringe upon these rights for the child's own protection.  Unfortunately, misguided guardians tend to overextend this "protection" into areas such as masturbation, pre-marital sex, dancing, wearing revealing clothes, hair styles, etc...rather than offering guidance & then letting the child figure out what they want to do.  This meddling seems to achieve little aside from alienating the child from his/her parents, and this lessens the ability of the guardian to guide:thumbdown:


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7581543 - 10/31/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

After having once followed the libertarian doctrine of natural rights, I no longer believe in them. "Rights" are a useful abstraction through which we can create a more fair and equitable society, but to think they exist independently of our conceptions is rather naive.


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7583080 - 11/01/07 07:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

adjust said:
it seems like, in this case, my rights were violated, and at the same time i am better off because of it




No, in that case, your rights were not violated.




explain this please

i see this as a clear violation of my right to do with my own body as i want


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7583096 - 11/01/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You made the claim that your rights were violated. The need for explanation is in your court. Which right of yours was violated, pray tell? :strokebeard:


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7583107 - 11/01/07 07:23 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i wanted to do something that was of no harm to anyone else and was prevented from doing so

the right i am speaking of is the (hypothetical) idea that every human being has the right to do as they want to themselves

in this case of paint thinner, i was prevented from drinking it


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7583115 - 11/01/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i am mostly interested in this:

is there a line of reasoning where one can

1 - respect this idea in general (the right of ownership of ones body)

AND

2 - not respect this idea in limited cases

OR

3 - render the entire question irrelavent

edit: the line of reasoning must be logically consistent


Edited by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl (11/01/07 07:46 AM)


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7583766 - 11/01/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

it sucks but who are we to tell someone else what is "RIGHT" and "WRONG" its all the norm anyways isnt it, norms and opinions welcome to Earth


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7584071 - 11/01/07 01:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
i am mostly interested in this:

is there a line of reasoning where one can

1 - respect this idea in general (the right of ownership of ones body)

AND

2 - not respect this idea in limited cases

OR

3 - render the entire question irrelavent

edit: the line of reasoning must be logically consistent




I choose 3.

The question becomes irrelevant when you consider that the idea of "rights" is altogether unnecessary.

What I mean is that, as sentient people able to effectively communicate in some fashion, we can either agree to respect each other because we genuinely want to, or not.

There is no need to invoke some imaginary principal which dictates the parameters of interaction. Such a principal REQUIRES an authoritarian system to be upheld. As we have seen, humanity has not done so well with such power structures.

If the concept of rights is gone we are back to square one: you can either choose to respect someone else, or you can choose to live with minimal interaction with anyone else, or you can face the consequences of unprovoked disrespect.

In the case of the physical body, respect means that you're not going to harm or kill someone unless they are trying to do the same to you, and you're not going to go around with a badge and uniform on harassing, beating and arresting people because some lawyer wearing a robe said you could.

If a person can not be said to own their own body, there had better be some really stellar evidence to show it. As far as I'm concerned, from a "legal" standpoint, my body is the only real "property" "I" "own" in this life.

There are people alive today who will swear up and down that if you have a U.S. birth certificate and a social security number, you do not own your body. The industrial banking monopoly that controls the government does.

I'm not so sure because I haven't done the research. But I do see a lot of people giving away control of their own mind to the government, because they believe that the government is there to protect their "rights". Well, turns out its not. That's all a lie.

imo None of this would be nearly as urgent and important if individuals spent more time working on themselves instead of ignoring their inner landscape and letting the garbage pile up so high they become intoxicated by it.


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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Clean]
    #7587061 - 11/02/07 09:44 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)



here is an instance where the invocation of "rights" makes the most sense to me. But again, any ideas we have about "rights" can hinge on the will of each individual, or they can hinge on a pyramidal authoritarian power structure that subjects individuals to its rule without consent (which is what we have today). And then who is going to check this system of power? Are the individuals in "official" positions subject to the same rules they impose on others?


Edited by Clean (11/05/07 08:47 AM)


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Clean]
    #7592852 - 11/03/07 10:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

is that the fountainhead?

sounds like rand


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InvisibleClean
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7593307 - 11/04/07 01:35 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

'tis.
i haven't read any of her works, only seen that clip.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: the right of ownership of ones body [Re: Clean]
    #7597229 - 11/05/07 01:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i wonder if they include the rape scene in the movie?

it was reading ayn rand that led me to make this post

im still very confused about this


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