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InvisiblePoid
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Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature
    #11284456 - 10/20/09 04:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

One of the qualities of life is that it dies; if something is immortal (i.e.- incapable of dying), then by definition, it was never alive. But, also by definition, something that is immortal is said to have eternal "life".

Am I the only one here who is being sorta mind fucked by this? :confused:



From Immortality - Wikipedia:
Quote:

Immortality (or eternal life) is the concept of living in a physical or spiritual form for an infinite or inconceivably vast length of time.

As immortality is the negation of mortality—not dying or not being subject to death—it has been a subject of fascination to humanity since at least the beginning of history. The Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the first literary works, dating back at least to the 22nd century BC, is primarily a quest of a hero seeking to become immortal. What form an unending human life would take (as well as whether it is subject to incapacitation), or whether the soul exists and possesses immortality, has been a major point of focus of religion, as well as the subject of speculation, fantasy, and debate.

It is not known whether human physical immortality is an achievable condition. Biological forms have inherent limitations which may or may not be able to be overcome through medical interventions or engineering. As of 2009, natural selection has developed biological immortality in at least one species, the jellyfish Turritopsis nutricula, one consequence of which is a worldwide population explosion of the organism.

Certain scientists, futurists, and philosophers, such as Ray Kurzweil, advocate that human immortality is achievable in the first few decades of the 21st century, while other advocates believe that life extension is a more achievable goal in the short term, with immortality awaiting further research breakthroughs farther into an indefinite future. Aubrey de Grey, a researcher who has developed a series of biomedical rejuvenation strategies to reverse human aging (called SENS), believes that his proposed plan for ending aging may be implementable in two or three decades. The absence of aging would provide humans with biological immortality, but not invulnerability to death by physical trauma: According to 2002 statistical data, the odds of an individual being traumatically killed are once in every one thousand and seven hundred years.

Eternal life can also be defined as a timeless existence, which is also not known for certain to be achievable, or even definable, despite millennia of arguments for eternity. Wittgenstein, in a notably non-theological interpretation of eternal life, writes in the Tractatus that, "If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present."





--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineSprezzatura
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11286247 - 10/20/09 08:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Freaky, but what about the Elves in Lord of the Rings.. They were Immortal, but they could die, were they not living? :smile:


--------------------
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Sprezzatura]
    #11286316 - 10/20/09 08:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, they were alive...and not immortal, because they died.


But what if the point isn't at the end, but the beginning? I mean, what if a once-mortal creature somehow gained true deathless immortality? Can infinity be a ray instead of a line?


How many licks does it take?


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #11286725 - 10/20/09 09:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Yeah, they were alive...and not immortal, because they died.


But what if the point isn't at the end, but the beginning? I mean, what if a once-mortal creature somehow gained true deathless immortality? Can infinity be a ray instead of a line?


How many licks does it take?





thats how i always thought of it


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: igwna]
    #11290831 - 10/21/09 11:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sprezzatura said:
Freaky, but what about the Elves in Lord of the Rings.. They were Immortal, but they could die, were they not living? :smile:


:niggawhat:

I never got into that trilogy enough to know what 'Elves' you are talking about! :cool2:


Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Yeah, they were alive...and not immortal, because they died.


What do you mean by "they"? :confused:



Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
But what if the point isn't at the end, but the beginning?


What?



Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
I mean, what if a once-mortal creature somehow gained true deathless immortality?


Well, that is the paradox; if a "once-mortal creature" somehow "gained true deathless immortality", then in essence, that would mean that it's not alive anymore because, again, by definition, all living things die.




Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Can infinity be a ray instead of a line?


If I remember correctly, yes. :justdontknow:



Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
How many licks does it take?


It's always fun to find out! :eatingout:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Yeah, they were alive...and not immortal, because they died.


But what if the point isn't at the end, but the beginning? I mean, what if a once-mortal creature somehow gained true deathless immortality? Can infinity be a ray instead of a line?


How many licks does it take?





thats how i always thought of it


Do you have anything extra to add? :cool:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (10/21/09 04:27 PM)


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292306 - 10/21/09 03:53 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

basically you're saying that if something can die, only then is it alive.

you're just looking at things in a ridiculous manner.




i can see what you're getting at, but i can think of no good reason to be thinking that way. its not what you're reading, its how you're reading it.


simply put, no one living being (to our knowledge) has ever reached a state of immortality. lets leave such things to story books... soon as we have a living subject, then we can discuss whether or not its alive.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: igwna]
    #11292484 - 10/21/09 04:18 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
basically you're saying that if something can die, only then is it alive.


Part of what defines a living being is that it dies; if it cannot die, it was never alive to begin with.


Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
you're just looking at things in a ridiculous manner.


Defining terms is a ridiculous manner of debate? :confused:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
i can see what you're getting at, but i can think of no good reason to be thinking that way. its not what you're reading, its how you're reading it.


What are you even saying here? :what:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
simply put, no one living being (to our knowledge) has ever reached a state of immortality.


You don't seem to understand the paradox...:shrug2:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
lets leave such things to story books... soon as we have a living subject, then we can discuss whether or not its alive.


Let's leave such things where they are--in the books of science and in the dictionary.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (10/26/09 03:14 PM)


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OfflineSprezzatura
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292537 - 10/21/09 04:25 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Haha, that "Nigga What" Bird is hilarious.


--------------------
Spectaculorum procedere debet





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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Sprezzatura]
    #11292541 - 10/21/09 04:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Ain't it? :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292583 - 10/21/09 04:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

The universe creates endlessly, therefore it is immortal
The things it creates are not

Everything is paradoxical in nature

:peace:


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292609 - 10/21/09 04:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
basically you're saying that if something can die, only then is it alive.


Part of what defines a living being is that it dies; if it cannot die, it was never alive to behin with. 




Immortality (or eternal life) is the concept of living in a physical or spiritual form for an infinite or inconceivably vast length of time.

Perhaps, we're all immortal.. Death as we know it (in the physical) is just a passing of shells, as hermit crabs do.

Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
you're just looking at things in a ridiculous manner.


Defining terms is a ridiculous manner of debate? :confused:




well i was kind of referring to adding rules and new confusion to something that most everyone was kind of on the same page with. but yes, defining terms is a ridiculous manner of debate :kingtard:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
i can see what you're getting at, but i can think of no good reason to be thinking that way. its not what you're reading, its how you're reading it.


What are you even saying here? :what:




i thought that might be too hard to understand :wow:



Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
simply put, no one living being (to our knowledge) has ever reached a state of immortality.


You don't seem to understand the paradox...:shrug2:





OHHHHHHH so what you're saying is that nothing can ever reach this state of immortality because it means something that can never die, but it has to be able to die in order to be alive at all?






Quote:

theMERRYiguana said:
lets leave such things to story books... soon as we have a living subject, then we can discuss whether or not its alive.


Let's leave such things where they are--in the books of science and in the dictionary.




i've never seen anything on immortality in a book of science. interesting.
care to share your resources? i could use a good read.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Chronic7]
    #11292612 - 10/21/09 04:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
The universe creates endlessly


Source? Are you implying that the universe will never end? :strokebeard:



Quote:

Chronic777 said:
therefore it is immortal


This conclusion's truth is based on the truth of your earlier assertion, which you provided absolutely no providing evidence for.



Quote:

Chronic777 said:
The things it creates are not


So the things that the universe creates are not part of the universe? :confused:



Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Everything is paradoxical in nature



Can you give one example of phenomenon that are generally accepted as not being paradoxical, and show us how they are in fact paradoxical? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292662 - 10/21/09 04:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

If you're interested in this subject there's a couple books you should look into:

Last Flesh: Life in the Transhuman Era - Christopher Dewdney
The Gift of Death - Jaques Derrida

Derrida poses that immortality would destroy the ultimate value of existence.  That it is the fact that we ARE finite, that we DO one day end...that end is what offers value to each moment, since we could die at any moment, each one could be our last (Castaneda uses this too with the idea of death always being over the left shoulder and using ones death to live impeccably), if we couldn't die those moments would simply be another amongst an innumerable group...their meaning would be lost because there would always, at all times, be an infinitely progressing series of moments to come.  The fact that we CAN die makes those moments something, I guess you could say "holy", they're all we've got...Actually, another awesome book that metaphorically deals with the same idea is The Last Unicorn...good book :smile:


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

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--Eli

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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Charos]
    #11292673 - 10/21/09 04:47 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I might look into those, but we should deal with the issue at hand here in the forum.


So far, does anyone disagree with my assertion? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292900 - 10/21/09 05:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quick question, you mentioned that, if something is immortal than it is by definition not alive...on what criteria is that built?


--------------------
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--Eli

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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Charos]
    #11292943 - 10/21/09 05:34 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Dictionary definitions.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292969 - 10/21/09 05:36 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Well that narrows it down :smile: which one?

–adjective
1. having life; living; existing; not dead or lifeless.
2. living (used for emphasis): the proudest man alive.
3. in a state of action; in force or operation; active: to keep hope alive.
4. full of energy and spirit; lively: Grandmother's more alive than most of her contemporaries.
5. having the quality of life; vivid; vibrant: The room was alive with color.
6. Electricity. live 2 (def. 17).

It would seem immortals would readily fit into the first category...


--------------------
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--Eli

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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11292995 - 10/21/09 05:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

From Life - Wikipedia
Quote:

Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have self-sustaining biological processes from those that do not —either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as "inanimate."

In biology, the science of living organisms, "life" is the condition which distinguishes active organisms from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, functional activity and the continual change preceding death.[4][5] A diverse array of living organisms (life forms) can be found in the biosphere on Earth, and properties common to these organisms—plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea, and bacteria — are a carbon- and water-based cellular form with complex organization and heritable genetic information. Living organisms undergo metabolism, maintain homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations. More complex living organisms can communicate through various means.[1][6]

In philosophy and religion, the conception of life and its nature varies. Both offer interpretations as to how life relates to existence and consciousness, and both touch on many related issues, including life stance, purpose, conceptions of God, the soul and the afterlife.







From Immortality - Wikipedia:
Quote:

Immortality (or eternal life) is the concept of living in a physical or spiritual form for an infinite or inconceivably vast length of time.

As immortality is the negation of mortality?not dying or not being subject to death?it has been a subject of fascination to humanity since at least the beginning of history. The Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the first literary works, dating back at least to the 22nd century BC, is primarily a quest of a hero seeking to become immortal. What form an unending human life would take (as well as whether it is subject to incapacitation), or whether the soul exists and possesses immortality, has been a major point of focus of religion, as well as the subject of speculation, fantasy, and debate.

It is not known whether human physical immortality is an achievable condition. Biological forms have inherent limitations which may or may not be able to be overcome through medical interventions or engineering. As of 2009, natural selection has developed biological immortality in at least one species, the jellyfish Turritopsis nutricula, one consequence of which is a worldwide population explosion of the organism.

Certain scientists, futurists, and philosophers, such as Ray Kurzweil, advocate that human immortality is achievable in the first few decades of the 21st century, while other advocates believe that life extension is a more achievable goal in the short term, with immortality awaiting further research breakthroughs farther into an indefinite future. Aubrey de Grey, a researcher who has developed a series of biomedical rejuvenation strategies to reverse human aging (called SENS), believes that his proposed plan for ending aging may be implementable in two or three decades. The absence of aging would provide humans with biological immortality, but not invulnerability to death by physical trauma: According to 2002 statistical data, the odds of an individual being traumatically killed are once in every one thousand and seven hundred years.

Eternal life can also be defined as a timeless existence, which is also not known for certain to be achievable, or even definable, despite millennia of arguments for eternity. Wittgenstein, in a notably non-theological interpretation of eternal life, writes in the Tractatus that, "If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present."








See the paradox yet? :yawn:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11293072 - 10/21/09 05:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

its a silly paradox.

they're only words. if i met a man that could live forever, i'd still call him  an immortal. :shrug:


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



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Re: Immortality is Paradoxical in its Nature [Re: Poid]
    #11293093 - 10/21/09 05:52 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Not really...I see that something with life cannot BE dead, but this is a really problematical definition to work with...

Quote:

In biology, the science of living organisms, "life" is the condition which distinguishes active organisms from inorganic matter,




An immortal wouldn't be inorganic...I can't think of any reason it would be anything but an active organism...the core of what "life" represents seems set out here

Quote:

Living organisms undergo metabolism, maintain homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations.




But even then we run into a problem, by this logic it could be argued that because mules are incapable of reproduction they are "not living"...conversely, fire could fit virtually every single one of those criteria, it consumes fuel (oxygen and material), maintains balance or homeostasis through that...it grows, it responds to stimuli, it reproduces and spreads and can adapt to it's environment.  The only point of contradiction I can see is here:

Quote:

including the capacity for growth, functional activity and the continual change preceding death.[4][5]




and even that is limited, for example the one cite they use is Webster's which also defines life much more broadly:

Quote:

Main Entry: 1life
Pronunciation: \ˈlīf\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural lives \ˈlīvz\
Etymology: Middle English lif, from Old English līf; akin to Old English libban to live — more at live
Date: before 12th century

1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>
3 : biography 1
4 : spiritual existence transcending physical death
5 a : the period from birth to death b : a specific phase of earthly existence <adult life> c : the period from an event until death <a judge appointed for life> d : a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict's life
6 : a way or manner of living
7 : livelihood
8 : a vital or living being; specifically : person <many lives were lost in the disaster>
9 : an animating and shaping force or principle
10 : spirit, animation <saw no life in her dancing>
11 : the form or pattern of something existing in reality <painted from life>
12 : the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something <the expected life of the batteries>
13 : the period of existence (as of a subatomic particle) — compare half-life
14 : a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being
15 : living beings (as of a particular kind or environment) <forest life>
16 a : human activities b : animate activity and movement <stirrings of life> c : the activities of a given sphere, area, or time <the political life of the country>
17 : one providing interest and vigor <life of the party>
18 : an opportunity for continued viability <gave the patient a new life>
19 capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
20 : something resembling animate life <a grant saved the project's life>




The only definition that even mentions death is the 5th, and that's one of 20 distinct definitions, 19 of which mention nothing at all about death.  I don't see why an immortal person wouldn't fit 100% perfectly under that first definition.


--------------------
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--Eli

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