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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: leviticus2013]
    #4606611 -

You people who say they shouldnt take what they need have never felt hunger. You dont know how it is to have nothing. Hunger is not only in the belly. To consider it "stealing" when they all have nothing is GREED!

The gang banger already pulling in 6 figures selling crack on the corner who loots the gun store has nothing?  :thumbdown:


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4606980 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
A lot of unselfish generousity is pouring out of americans now as well.
.
Much more goodness of humanity is being drawn from this then bad.
.
Just wanted to keep this in perspective.


Goodness and humanity.... 
Especially from the unselfish generosity of the oil companies helping everyone out in the time of need....    :thumbup:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Ravus]
    #4607297 -

Ravus said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
a monkey has hands to hold things, it would be stupid for him not to use them for that to pick up a bananna

same way, humans have a thinking brain, it would be stupid to disregard it and act on instinct when thinking brain can be used to arange society in ways usefull for everyone


The human brain can adapt to many circumstances; in times of peace and order, we can use it to help others and create growth in society. In times of disasters, we can use it to help our own survival and welfare. We have to keep our mindset fluid so as to utilize every potential in every environment we'll face.

And I'm sure they used their brains; it's not easy getting through metal barricades to the gun shop.



but thinking for the purpuse of survival of self may be damaging for other people, which makes it a very limited and ineficient way of thinking, one one hand the humanity gains (those who steal get something( , on the other hand it loses (those who had the things now lost them), and you are back where you were.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4607333 -

LunarEclipse said:
I always think it is amusing when people try to justify stealing if it is to feed themselves. It is still stealing. The only question is to what degree.

Now, some people would find jewelry or the latest TV to be absolutely "necessary" to their well being. Who are we to judge the level of their needs?


There is a difference, a marked difference, between any "need" for jewelry and the actual physical need for food + water. A human will survive without shiny trinkets. A human will die within weeks without food, and within days without water.

That is why you have to differentiate between actual "needs" and created "wants". A person can "want" jewelry, even so much as to think they "need" it...but it is still only a want. A person "needs" food and water to exist - no exception.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: trendal]
    #4607394 -

a human can die out of many reasons, for example, someone may kill himself for not having jewelry, in which cas jewelry was necessary for his existence because lack of it caused suicide


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: trendal]
    #4607405 -

Agreed that water, food and shelter fall into a different category of true needs versus wants. Still, one has to wonder about the guy who killed his sister in Hattiesburg MS after the hurricane in a dispute over a bag of ice. I guess his need for ice was greater than hers. We should be lenient with him at sentencing.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (09/01/05 09:03 AM)

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4607412 -

It's called the Goldilacks Syndrome and it's no joke.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4607480 -

Ahh, but then you must admit that humans actually don't have free-will, mustn't you?

A person can choose to kill themselves, or another, because they didn't get something they want. They didn't "need" it, but they had a hissy-fit because they didn't get it.

A person cannot choose to just continue living if they don't have water or food. They will die, as soon as their body runs out of stores.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: trendal]
    #4608002 -

What does physical death have to do with the existence of free will?

Evidence of the existence of free will would be choosing not to eat and drink, and accepting the natural consequence of your death.

Saying that we cannot choose not to die, therefore there is no free will, is like saying since we cannot choose to fly, there is no free will!

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: trendal]
    #4608031 -

trendal said:
Ahh, but then you must admit that humans actually don't have free-will, mustn't you?

A person can choose to kill themselves, or another, because they didn't get something they want. They didn't "need" it, but they had a hissy-fit because they didn't get it.

A person cannot choose to just continue living if they don't have water or food. They will die, as soon as their body runs out of stores.


But can humans really chose? I mean if someone is stupid enough to kill himself because of gold, then that is who he is. Did you ever see anyone decide not to be stupid anymore?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Veritas]
    #4608037 -

Veritas said:
What does physical death have to do with the existence of free will?

Evidence of the existence of free will would be choosing not to eat and drink, and accepting the natural consequence of your death.

Saying that we cannot choose not to die, therefore there is no free will, is like saying since we cannot choose to fly, there is no free will!


All this talk of free-will, and nobody even knows what the heck is it, and who invented the idea in the first place.
Do you percieve free-will as some random number generator in the brain? Well even random number generators have a hidden pattern, they simply follow the laws of the universe.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4608050 -

IMO free will is the ability to make choices that change and shape your life. Those who believe everything is "set" or "programmed" or "destined" say that our choices are illusory.

I believe that we can change everything which is not bound by natural laws. Thus, death and the ability to fly are beyond the reaches of free will and personal choice.

Whether or not to steal luxury items during a natural disaster is certainly related to the exercise of free will. Even the decision to steal survival essentials is free will in action.

Edited by Veritas (09/01/05 12:17 PM)

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4608056 -

LunarEclipse said:
You people who say they shouldnt take what they need have never felt hunger. You dont know how it is to have nothing. Hunger is not only in the belly. To consider it "stealing" when they all have nothing is GREED!

The gang banger already pulling in 6 figures selling crack on the corner who loots the gun store has nothing?  :thumbdown:


you mean like a million? Some one making that kinda $ took off in his private jet or helicopter or yacht days before the hurrican hit.  Most of the people there didnt even have a car or even a freind with a car!!!

Edited by z10n (09/01/05 12:17 PM)

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Veritas]
    #4608066 -

But free-will itself defies the laws of the universe. I mean all the variables are here: the specific grid of neurons, the surroundings, stimulations etc. There is only one outcome.
How can the result be unpredictable if all the variables are considered?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4608071 -

It is unpredictable because we cannot consider all the variables! And because the variables change every millisecond. We are discussing human consciousness, not a mathematical equation. Numbers are static, humans are living and transforming.

What universal laws does this defy?

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Veritas]
    #4608088 -

I think you misread my post.

I was saying that for what OWS said to be true, you must assume that humans do not have free will.

I said that choosing to commit suicide because you don't get something you want is an example of free will.

If you "needed" the jewelery to live, as OWS was suggesting, then you wouldn't be free to chose whether you need it or not - it is a need not a want.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4608089 -

the choice between being stuffed in a dome full of stinking ass humans or grabbing gallons of clean botteled water at wall-mart and solar panels at home-depo. What would you choose. Seriously.

Edited by z10n (09/01/05 12:26 PM)

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: Veritas]
    #4608099 -

well we can't consider them because we are limited. I'm not saying humans can predict what others will think, it's beyond our level of calculation

But outside of limited human mind, there is an order to things, and every milisecond of change is predictable. When you put every peace of matter and energy into a an equation as a variable, and follows all the laws of the universe in resolving the equation, there is only one outcome. There is nothing outside this equation that can change the way development of things

with that considered, human beings, like everything else, are expressions of fixed natural laws, and are automatic machines.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: leviticus2013]
    #4608114 -

z10n said:
the choice between being stuffed in a dome full of stinking ass humans or grabbing gallons of clean botteled water at wall-mart and solar panels at home-depo. What would you choose. Seriously.


you are proving my point, I don't have a choice, I would chose the second.
And if I chosed the first one it would only be to prove that I can chose the first one over second. Both ways my choice was set by a motivation. The motivation started as chain of events in the first second of big bang


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Post Hurricane Looting [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4608122 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
a human can die out of many reasons, for example, someone may kill himself for not having jewelry, in which cas jewelry was necessary for his existence because lack of it caused suicide


Heh, as trendal said about will, that is no 'natural cause' of death...that is mental illness as cause of death.
I would seperate them as one more physical, the other more spiritual, psychological...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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