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OfflineGrav
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Experiencing symbols
    #4455057 - 07/26/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

With our present form of writing we use groups of arbitrarily formed abstract symbols (or alphabetical letters) which convey memorized sound and visual associations. We are trained to think and communicate through these alphabetical letters-placed in certain (again, memorized) groupings, or words-by reducing these abstract conventions into objective images in our minds. Simply stated, this means that when we read cat, we immediately reigster the formed image of a cat. This habitual reduction from a nonobjective mental abstraction to a delimited image can be seen as an initally centripetal action, which, subsequently, dispereses percepetion and knowledge into a classification of disconnected facts. We use numbers in a similar way, moving from abstract symbols to quantitative evaluations. But hieroglyphic writing works in the opposite or centrifugal direction. The image, the form, is there conretely before us, and it can thus expand, evoking within the prepared viewer a whole complex of abstract, intuitive notions or states of being-qualities, associations and relationships which cannot be dsecribed or defined but only expereienced. A centering sense of unification later results from this inwardly expansive movement of mind. A method of viewing is required comparable to our hearing faculty: one must learn to listen to the symbolic image, allowing it to enter into and pervade one's consciousness, as would a musical tone which directly resonates with the inner being, unimpeded by the surface mentality. In this moment of inner identity between the intellect and the aspect of the tangible world evoked by the symbol, we have the opportunity to live this knowledge. "By the heriatic symbolic method the aim is no longer to translate things into sensory terms, but to put ourselves into the state 'magically' identical with the symbol-object, so as to become heavy with the quality of weight, to become red with the quality of redness, to burn with the quality of fire."


from Symbol and the Symbolic: Egypt, Science, and the Evolution of Consciousness
by R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz

c 1978


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: Grav]
    #4455134 - 07/26/05 01:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting. :wink:

Reminds me of runes... :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: Grav]
    #4455163 - 07/26/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

if you look at a cezanne painting
there is a good chance of an organic connection to nuance and mentation that goes well beyond symbols to a full on gestalt kind of communication.

hieroglyphics and lettered writing both create chains of symbols to feed into any gestalt, but both symbol based communication systems are not better than either WRT full on communication; they are feeds that require sequential correlation and expansion.

very few of us could express themselves like a cezanne, and none of us could do it continuously.

there had been some speculation that whales were doing it by transducing sonar and transmitting pictures to eachother of their mind moments in whalesong - no symbols are to be found, nor should any be looked for, they are living masterpieces.


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: Grav]
    #4456962 - 07/26/05 09:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Very nice post, Grav.

There is alot of information that can be stored and then unleashed using symbols.

In terms of experiencing symbols, I have a personnal language that encrypts using variously allocated symbols with certain information.  There is always an ongoing development of the language, but at this point it is developed with enough rules that, to me, it begins making sense.

I'll give you an extremely simple example; I'm just making this up now:  let's pretend that I define a symbol, such as a yellow fire hydrant, with an arbitrary correlation... such as my cat. It's like tying a string to your finger to remember something.  So every time I come accross a yellow fire hydrant, I'm reminded of my cat.

In terms of your thread, experiencing symbols, I'm doing the same...  However, I experience stored memory, in a seemingly random fashion.

The randomness of this, "out of my head", stored memory is synonymous to the seemingly random fashion that I think of an ex-girlfriend, for example, from time to time..  just "out of the blue".


For me, there are certain applications...  Never, is my current train of thought interrupted, as I am reminded of various things. 


Sometimes, the symbolism that I randomly observe, actually coincides with what I am thinking of at a given moment...  It gets pretty interesting at that point.


In essence, it's like multi-tasking my memory, without compromising focus.  I guess you could see it as adding ram to a computer, or using a seperate hard drive to easy the use of several functions at once.


It's nothing more than a game that I have been playing with myself for a little while now.


:tongue2:


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4457363 - 07/26/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This interests me a lot. I have to go to work in the next.. minute, unfortunatly. I will post more when I get back however.

ELECTRIC, I've been playing a mind bendingly anoying game with myself as well.

I have spent the last 3 months doodling around with a number of language ideas and throwing them all into a large pot. I was trying to connect un-arbitrary value to symbols, via a predictable breakdown of the structure within the symbol. The simple version of this would be a right angle in a line representing perpendicular, or tangent like movement. Although that is a gross simplification. Essentially the symbols I was using were 2 dimentional 'mini-graphs' representing 3-4 dimentional forms. Uh, branes I suppose, in some disconnected way of explaining that.

Then there was a conversion of idea into sound. Taking the same mathematical 'mini-graph' symbol and working it out in terms of particle interaction. It made compounds of elements (periodic table) into concepts, which could be interpereted as the 'words' of the language, and the compounds would have a certain number of iterations. The iterations took the form of 3,5, or 7 tones in sequence on a 12 note scale.

I wish I was explaining the logic in my head better, but I need to be off to stock cans on shelves. :S


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4457640 - 07/26/05 11:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"I have spent the last 3 months doodling around with a number of language ideas..."

Sounds like a pretty logical manner of deciphering various symbols.

Do you suppose that such a technique could be used to unlock information, hidden by the creator of the symbol, thereby transforming it into a sort of cipher?



"Then there was a conversion of idea into sound. Taking the same mathematical 'mini-graph' symbol and working it out in terms of particle interaction. It made compounds of elements (periodic table) into concepts, which could be interpereted as the 'words' of the language, and the compounds would have a certain number of iterations. The iterations took the form of 3,5, or 7 tones in sequence on a 12 note scale."


Quite a concept you have there.

Excuse me if I am mistaken, but the 3,5 and 7 tones on a 12 note Major scale, if played in coincidence, create a minor chord.

Throwing your observed iterations through a series of combinations relative to time, and you have an entire symphony to listen to.

:grin:

The universe is quite musical...  I believe, that, playing in harmony is key.


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4459127 - 07/27/05 08:46 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ELECTRIC said:
"I have spent the last 3 months doodling around with a number of language ideas..."

Sounds like a pretty logical manner of deciphering various symbols.

Do you suppose that such a technique could be used to unlock information, hidden by the creator of the symbol, thereby transforming it into a sort of cipher?




Very likely.  Part of why this has been more of a game than anything, is that I can never pinpoint a solid application for any of it.  So it has basically turned into the largest 'decoder ring' system I could imagine.

Quote:

"Then there was a conversion of idea into sound. Taking the same mathematical 'mini-graph' symbol and working it out in terms of particle interaction. It made compounds of elements (periodic table) into concepts, which could be interpereted as the 'words' of the language, and the compounds would have a certain number of iterations. The iterations took the form of 3,5, or 7 tones in sequence on a 12 note scale."


Quite a concept you have there.

Excuse me if I am mistaken, but the 3,5 and 7 tones on a 12 note Major scale, if played in coincidence, create a minor chord.

Throwing your observed iterations through a series of combinations relative to time, and you have an entire symphony to listen to.

:grin:

The universe is quite musical...  I believe, that, playing in harmony is key.




I actualy arrived at the 3,5, and 7 based on a different reason entirely, but this is giving me new insight already.  I feel like an idiot even more than normal now, and i'm loving it, hah.  Thank you for pointing that out.  (I am going to be up for the rest of the day working on this now)

This could be used in reverse as a sort of encryption method for sound.  Either to hide a messege, or to compress the information, or both.  It could also be used to generate 'images' of sound that would have aesthetic value as well as descriptive value, rather than purely descriptive value.  And in reverse too, you could draw out patterns in colour and value (b/w).  This could - as a computer program - convert it into something resembling an actual song, rather than random tones.  Drawing music as art, mmm!


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4459249 - 07/27/05 09:52 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

there had been some speculation that whales were doing it by transducing sonar and transmitting pictures to eachother of their mind moments in whalesong - no symbols are to be found, nor should any be looked for, they are living masterpieces.




i imagine if we had an image translator it would be awesome to experience


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: Grav]
    #4459324 - 07/27/05 10:20 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

we have to use our inner whale


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4459952 - 07/27/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I've got my "Mobi" Dick !!!!


Does that count?


:dumblol:


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: ELECTRIC]
    #4460090 - 07/27/05 02:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

sing it baby we're listenning now


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InvisibleELECTRIC
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Re: Experiencing symbols [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4460127 - 07/27/05 03:09 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"...Someday, I'm going to be a famous rock'n roll guitar player..."

The Audience Is Listening... Passion & Warfare

~Steve Vai


--------------------
Nos confido phasmatis occultus in vicis postulo nostrum tutela donatus futurus.


Edited by ELECTRIC (07/28/05 02:37 AM)


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