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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3121602 - 09/11/04 05:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Also, to say that Peter Jackson was making a racist statement about Arabs is highly innacurate.




Indeed. So inaccurate that I in fact did not say that.

Quote:

You make Tolkien out to be a toadstool hopping pagan, and Peter Jackson out as a neo-nazi.




No. I did not do that.
I respect them both, I strongly dislike neonazis and am in fact a "toadstool-hopping pagan" as my username 'Wiccan' reflects.

Quote:

If the movie happens to carry a relevant message for us it is only because it always has, not just in the present political context.




Which is your way of saying that the symbolism is omnipresent throughout time, including this September 11 2004.

And like I am saying, then preaching and finally screaming is that I want to discuss the spiritual messages we see and not disagree by default.

I did not assault Tolkien nor Jackson. I hold them both in high esteem but have mixed feelings about some aspects of their art including the Black/White binary thinking. This also runs rife across the Shroomery as many are under the impression you are either a rabid defender or a rabid attacker and they cannot fathom the concept of mixed feelings.

I want out of the netwide Spirituality forum habit of "Dismiss others beliefs disrespectfully + own holy unshakable truth = Posting"
and want to see what we get out of it, and see where we agree.
The majority of webforum responses are: "you are wrong, because..." so lets not do that here.

So please, if you want to discuss, tell us which ancient timeless Norse symbolism you see in LOTR which you believe to be spiritually significant. If you see universal values please share them because then the thread can be about its topic & title once more.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3121854 - 09/11/04 07:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You have equated this trilogy with fascism and stated that it was a "bitter pill to swallow". This implies that you view it as a modern social statement. So quit contradicting yourself. This movie's symbolism cannot be relevantly discussed in ANY context other than the context of middle earth. There is no relationship between it and 9/11, WWI, WWII, the atomic bomb, UFOs, religion, etc... It is simply NOT relevant in any of those contexts because it is a rather atypical medieval style epic in it's construction. Read the "Volunga Saga" "Beowulf" "The Song of Roland" "The Nibelungeliad" and you will see all of these same themes played out...even Elves (Volsunga Saga). If you want to read an earlier work of fiction covering this same ground that clearly predates LOTR read William Morris' "The Well at the World's End" or Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword". They cover the same ground in the same (near exact) manner. This is like trying to equate the "Illiad" with 9/11. There are many time honored mythological archetypes that have been with our collective unconcious since time began such as the trickster (Satan, Merlin, Huehuecoyotl or Gandalf and Don Juan) and the hero (Gilgamesh, Jesus, Luke Skywalker, King Arthur). If you want to find relevance examine these bare archetypes, themselves, in the context of our present day society. Tolkein (like George Lucas) just conciously borrowed them as a literary device.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3121922 - 09/11/04 07:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You insist on misunderstanding me.

You are elaborating on things that show you do not see or want to see the essence of what i mean.

Instead of seeking insight into my view of things you keep painting me with the same brush and telling me how i can be delivered from my ignorance.

In your post I see not a single wording that suggests you gained or sought more insight as to why I say what I say nor did you ask questions to find out.

Your post lacks even a single question mark, you're just laying it down. Well me too now. Theres no way to reach agreement like this. This is a discussion where you do not seek to find out my take on things, but blast me with both barrels whenever I show my face.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3121957 - 09/11/04 08:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

ha ha, I was waiting for the George Lucas to pop up in this thread!

Hue Hue made an important comment here. He talked about this elven stuff coming from the middle earth. That puts my understanding of the elven on the page he is on.

I am still confused why wiccan and hue hue are having this clash. Hue hue, are you saying it's okay for wiccan to use George Lucas films to make archetypal comparisons to study recurring patterns and not those of LOTR? What is the difference?

It seems like you are getting hyper defensive of the authors intention for his books and regrading opinions of wiccan. Is that all you are out to highlight? I think thats understood now.

Does that mean wiccan and others who want to use his work for a different purpose can't? It's highly important and normal that people are exploring archetypal energies right now. They are the fractals of the whole within.

Wiccan openned up a disscusion on it based on these particular archetypes and i just see you throwing wrenches into it based on who intended what and whos opinions differ from yours.

Even if they want to insight into the author so what? How do you know their insight is wrong? Insight takes you into what another is not revealing on the outside. Even if it is, people understand themselves better through the process and thats a good thing. George Lucas isn't about to go public with where he got the idea for the original star wars story from and I don't blame him.

You are both shamans and this is reading like a shamanic peckar war.

Why don't you both share your shamanic journeys into the middle world. Now that would be some cool as shit reading and there would be nothing to debate to destract from it.  :wink:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3122212 - 09/11/04 09:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"I am still confused why wiccan and hue hue are having this clash"

Because LOTR is a fine work of fiction, but little else. To imply that is more than Grade A entertainment cheapens it by attaching meaning that does not exist. I think I understand Wiccan_Seeker quite well, and he is seeking that which does not exist and claiming that I misunderstand him. If he means other than what he has indicated he needs to communicate it clearly. I love LOTR and I despise seeing it turned in to a justification for bogus "New Age" religion. I am not slandering Pagans, but there are many "New Age" religious ideas with no basis in fact or historical philosophy. If there are people who want to use LOTR for their bible I don't care, but I think it is slightly ridiculous.

"You are both shamans"

Do not make that claim for me, being a Shaman requires many more years of study and practical experience in healing others than I can lay claim to. I have merely a "highly developed interest" in the subject.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3122232 - 09/11/04 09:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think anyone reading here understands that you see it as being ridiculous and why and it's great you added that. You write strong considerations and I love reading your stuff. But does it have to keep going on getting beaten to a bloody pulp already? LOL You've all but choked this thread and it may have gone into some interesting and unrelated places. maybe it still will????????

I appreciate that you cleared up that you have a high interest in shaminism but do not claim to be one. Sorry if I misquoted something I thought you said elsewhere.  :blush:


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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3122251 - 09/11/04 09:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Wiccan,

I think its great you are taking this to the depths you are. I always say the greatest treasures are found buried in them (between the lines).  :thumbup:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3122253 - 09/11/04 09:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I said I had studied and practiced for a combined total of 11 years...that does not a shaman make. I am NO master.

"You've all but choked this thread"

Mission accomplished then.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3122324 - 09/11/04 09:48 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HUEHUECOYOTL said:
"You've all but choked this thread"

Mission accomplished then.




So, twas not debate but a mission to shut down this thread?
There was no fight. There was just you, using the name of Huehuecoyotl, making a complete ass of yourself for all to see.

Since you took your hostilities to another thread as well: if this becomes your next "mission" I will inform a moderator you are on a mission to harass me.


--------------------
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR *DELETED* [Re: Asante]
    #3122347 - 09/11/04 09:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Moonshoe


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR *DELETED* [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3122538 - 09/11/04 11:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Wiccan_Seeker


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3122699 - 09/11/04 11:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Ok...

:sad:

Sorry dude. My zen got blown, i hit the downside of a wave, who knows?

Sorry i sounded so pissed off, sorry if i insulted you, sorry if anything i said sounded like a direct attack on you.

I have deleted the post, because i wasnt proud of it, and i wasnt entirely sure what it said, and i dont have mental energy to figure it out right now.

Basically i was indeed stoned when i wrote it, and tired as fuck, and grouchy cuz this city drags me down sometimes. Im stoned now to, but i just had a good workout so im feelin a bit better.


ANY WAYS, some things i said might have been taken more harshly than they were meant for what its worth, such as Jive. You should hear me and my friends in our day to day conversation, we make up words all the time, anyways it basically just means disagree.

Fuck...

all i can really say is, im sorry

This is my first week back in the city, cooped up in a little house, and my second day back at school. Its amazing what it does to you when you go from two months into the solitude of the wilderness, living healthy, up when your ready, down when your tired, 3 square meals a day, to the school schedule.

Up at 7 Am. 2 cups of cofee just to wake up, then another one to get you thru first class. Buses, sounds, smog. Missing meals, sleeping like shit, internal clock trying to adjust.

All my meditation and regimes have gone out in the window in the last week as i try to adjust my schedule.

Again, not an excuse

sorry dude, thank fuck its saturday and im going out to the cabin for a few days. Refuel and recharge. When i get back ill see if i cant get back on track.

Anyways, peace dude, many apologies

To be fair, like you said, i guess i didnt understand your posts, and misinterpreted them or something. What the fuck.

ANyways i gotta go pack,

IM outs

:heart:


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3122734 - 09/12/04 12:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, we all fuck up sometimes. Thanks for letting it out you regret it, both in the thread and private email.

It was some very caustic stuff and it was vicious, but give your personal circumstances at that time I guess you needed to vent and I got lucky to get the Suck.exe download.

All's well that ends well. You've been a gent about it now so I'll match that and deleted my response, so as for me we buried the hatchet and let bygones be bygones.

I hope you'll have a good time and that all will be Zen once again for you, between you & me its Zen already as far as I'm concerned.
Catch ya soon man!


--------------------
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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3122749 - 09/12/04 12:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Learn to recognize a sarcastic joke. My point WAS to debate. We are here to discuss not get pissed because others don't stroke our egos. I don't care if you disagree with me. THAT is what I am here for...to be debated with.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/12/04 12:31 AM)


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3122850 - 09/12/04 12:52 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well after all this I hope the thread can get on the road again.

Now the negative symbolisms that are or are not present in LOTR have been discussed beyond the pleasurable and I propose we get back on the original track of the Thread, which is what spiritual symbolisms one as a person has taken out of the Lord of the Rings saga and let's look a bit more to the positive side, what I planned had I not responded over and over to posts about the darker side. Today's tragic anniversary, September 11, has gotten my gut in a knot and added to the emphasis on unpleasant symbolics and personal worries, but let's leave those behind.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


If I look at the LOTR's main characters, Frodo and Sam, I see an archetype that nowadays is at the core of every possible Disney movie :smirk:, being the moving away from innocense and the sheltered, childhoodlike existance in the Shire, wide-eyed stepping into the "real world", but discovering the harshness (War) and beauty (Rivendel) is beyond the expected.

It resembles a journey from adolescence to adulthood. In the end, after the Ring is destroyed (and the innocent Frodo lost the ring with his finger just like the evil Sauron ages ago, making it come full circle) Mount Doom collapses in a final SFX finale :smirk:.

The becoming of a true adult (not an age matter, because they were of age, but of the Soul) finally culminated in facing the greatest fear of all: that of Death. This was their Rite of Passage, the 'dying a thousand deaths' that in many spiritual traditions stands between boyhood and spiritual adulthood or warrior-ness, and like in Tribal ritual it fastened the bond of Brotherhood between the Initiated (Frodo and Sam) who marched the longest road together.

In psychedelics and intense meditation practices this is often referred to as the process of Ego Death, which involves having to face your worst fear of all, to it's full extent, and fully accepting and inviting the maddening horror to consume you.

Like with the Hobbits your Mount Doom will come tumbling down, 'Doom' being that the structure of your worst fears collapses in on you. Upon full and total surrender you will be reborn in a state of bliss, as many Veterans will agree to, and are forever clenced of the constrictions of your pre-psychedelic/pre-meditative life. Those who cannot surrender might be in grave trouble, however.

What I see in the journey of Frodo and Sam is the archetypal spiritual growth to maturity of the Spirit through hardships and awe, in a process matching meditrative and tribal initiation rites around the world.

This set of archetypes in my view contributes to the appeal of Lord of the Rings, and bridges the chasm between western culture and a wider plethora of experience.

As we in the West generically are deprived of this Rite of Passage many youths seek solace in rebellion and drugs. The Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies has a special drug education programme called the  Rites of Passage project which aims to educate teens and their parents and to give the 'Rite of Passage' back to our culture by controlled psychedelics experimentation within the family, partially supervised by the parents and in line with the Ayahuasca churches of Brazil.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3122872 - 09/12/04 01:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Hey you kinda stepped on my sac and it seemed you weren't even paying attention at all. I hope it wasn't so.

I actually didn't want to delve into the negative symbolisms as much as it all turned out, but it kept coming up and it kinda ruined the thread's setup.

We both don't need to be liked by all. If you're still here for debate, then let's tuck those axes under our belts and do so.

I just posted a hobbit-bit, I'd like your take on it and I want to ask you which Nordic archetypes you see in the LOTR. Let's please stick to LOTR as the main source of archetypes because thats the pop culture icon of those, most have seen that as a movie and not read all those books.

I, for one, have got Beowulf as a .pdf but have yet to start reading it. Grendel was a monstrous archetype and to this day in Holland, Belgium and Germany a latch to secure a door is called a "Grendel", which does mean it packed quite a wallop back then!


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Get 1 month's supplies in case of illness or calamity and help loved ones.
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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3123205 - 09/12/04 03:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

No thread can be ruined. When you start it anything can become of it. The late Joseph Campbell was a world recognized authority on comparative mythology. He studied world mythologies and found similarities that were common to all cultures of the world, from the Pygmies in Africa and the Yanomamo indians of the Rainforest to the world of the ancient Greeks and the Norse. He found that certain archetypes always fulfilled the same role in the cultures that spawned them. He had no illusions that these myths were true, but saw that these archetypes presented thier cultures with guides for conducting their lives. The two most important archetypes were the trickster and the hero. The trickster introduces chaos in order to bring about much needed change. In many cultures the trickster is painted a villain because people usually oppose change. Examples of this are Satan, Loki, and Iktomi the Spider(from Lakota legend). He seems the villain, but he keeps the people on their toes and stops complacency at the root. He is necessary to the survival of the culture. Without change stagnation sets in. Often the trickster is a teacher as well. Guys like Merlin and Quetzlcoatyl and in more modern "myths" Obiwan Kenobi and Don Juan are examples of this. Usually the trickster has interaction with another archetype called the hero. The hero is a normal guy who undergoes a drastic change resulting in his real or symbolic death and rebirth. Jesus, Odin, and the welsh god Lugh experienced physical death and were resurected. Often the death is symbolic in that the person's whole life is knocked topsy turvy until it is no longer recognizable to the person. Luke Skywalker and Beowulf are examples of this. The conflict that results is usually what the hero has to resolve. Once he gets reborn or gains his footing again (a symbolic ressurection) he is stronger than before...almost a superhero. Then he kicks ass, takes names, and saves the world. Often it is the trickster that sends his life askew and motivates him to become the rescuer/messiah. Classic hero/trickster relationships are seen in Eve and the Serpent(Old Scratch), Arthur and Merlin, Loki and Thor (or Loki and Odin), Gandalf and Bilbo (or Frodo), and , my personal favorite, Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda. If you look at ANY literature you can make out these archetypes hard at work. I once authored a paper about the hero/trickster interaction in Joyce Carol Oates' "Where have You Been, Where are You Going" The relavancy of these archetype comes together when we examine them as models for living. The hero is the average Joe. At certain points Joe must adapt to change and overcome against odds. Legendary heros do this once in literature, but normal people are forced to this at many points throughout their lives. I once had a severe drinking problem. No matter what I did I could not stop. Then my life fell apart and I underwent a drastic change. My moral sense of right rose up inside me and filled me with strength. I then put it all back together again, but I was strong where I once was weak. I was the hero, if only to myself. If we rise to the challenge of the hero, change only makes us stronger and we are reborn continually. Look at those around you...how many heroes do you know? You see the heroes who failed as well. They beg for money in the street to buy booze, or they haunt the shelters of the homeless. The cool thing about the hero is that he is inside even those who seemingly failed...waiting, for another chance, and many will be heroes once more. The trickster is the guy that upsets the established order. He often does this with lies or half-truths because he beleives that the end justifies the means. He causes the change that needs to occur. You see these guys everywhere too...maybe you have been one. In modern times there have been many well known ones such as Timothy Leary and Ralph Nader. I don't really care for Michael Moore, but in promoting "Farahnheight 9/11" he has become a classic trickster. He has been publicly booed like at the Academy Awards. He is both hated and revered. His movie has caused many to rexamine our nation's role in Iraq. He even uses blatant propoganda to get our attention. He is a true Heyoka. I mention him because at this time he is the most cut and dried example of the trickster in the public eye. Maybe you know of more? There are many other archetypes, but these two are by far the most important ones. So, that is why examining these archetypes in a work of literature is just a curiosity. Examining the archetypes themselves reflects on us and the meaning of our lives.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (09/12/04 05:51 AM)


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Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3123224 - 09/12/04 03:15 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, yeah...read Beowulf...you'll love it.


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