Home | Community | Message Board


SoulSpeciosa Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR
    #3117603 - 09/10/04 07:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

This thread deals with the spiritual significance of the Lord of the Rings saga, that recently hit the cinemas after decades of relative quiet.

The Lord of the Rings was written by JRR Tolkien during WW2 and in essence deals with a Good/Evil duality. Tolkien has more-or-less compiled his LOTR trilogy from folklore and legends as well as borrowed from historic people and events.
The books themselves have been labled by many to be the finest of 20th century literature and the movie trilogy has scored big after decades of relative dormancy.

Because of the timescale and practical matters lets primarily focus on the movies and not the books, as they are a contemporary take on those works of 1940s literature.

There are remarkable synchronicities between the movies and events occurring at the time they were brought out.
For instance the Two Towers movie was in resonance with the sept 11 attacks (let's hope things will remain quiet tomorrow) with a notable part being that the forces of Good had retreated to Helm's Deep, an Uruk-hai suicide bomber blew it's defense wall, and Uruk was the first historic city, located in Iraq and actually the real-world translation of 'Uruk' IS 'Iraq'

The Lord of the Rings has a lot of violence in it. Good and Evil, Light and Dark, are distributed along racial lines seen most clearly in the divide between the Orcs and the Elves. Both sides advocate 'total war' and genocide and use contemporary Weapons of Mass Destruction to achieve this goal, WMD such as the Helm's Deep bomb, the flooding of Isengard and deliberately driving the Orcs into an indiscriminately lethal forest of sinister Evil.

Personally I found the contemporary LOTR movie trilogy a bitter pill to swallow. The story is that of Good and Evil distributed across a racial divide, deals with genocidal warfare in the name of the Higher Cause (The Elves were on a Crusade/Jihad and Bush tried to mirror the same 'righteousness' to his Iraq war) and yet in conversation i found that most people had not questioned for a singe moment the ethics of it all in light of contemporary developments.
It was remarkable so few held even a shred of empathy for the Orcs, far less then with other Good/Evil-type movies and several actually had aquired a dislike of these non-existant beings that gave them physical adrenalin symptoms.


So let's discuss the Lord of the Rings duality of Good and Evil.
Is it a sign of the times that it strikes a chord with so many people or is it woven into the nature of humanity?
Are we rigging up for World War mentality, is it a cultural phenomenon or does the Lord of the Rings with its powerful archetypes touch the heart of the matter of 'real life' Good and Evil? How does 'race' fit into the picture? Since fantasy by nature is rooted in reality, where does LOTR stand where it comes to the archetypal (divine/demonic) and the earthly?

I've used Search in vain so on this Spirituality forum..
Let's talk Lord of the Rings.



Auxiliary to the discussion I'll start a little poll so anyone reading this can swiftly vote on the basics.
The Lord of The Rings
You may choose 3
Good movies
...Movies
Bad movies
Good story
...Story
Bad story
Good message
...Message
Bad message
All Your Base Are Belong To Us


Votes accepted from (09/10/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3117621 - 09/10/04 07:46 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

>"There are remarkable synchronicities between the movies and events occurring at the time they were brought out.
For instance the Two Towers movie was in resonance with the sept 11 attacks (let's hope things will remain quiet tomorrow) with a notable part being that the forces of Good had retreated to Helm's Deep, an Uruk-hai suicide bomber blew it's defense wall, and Uruk was the first historic city, located in Iraq and actually the real-world translation of 'Uruk' IS 'Iraq'"

What did the suicide bombers have in common with Iraq? As far as I am told they were from the Al Quaida network.

>"The Elves were on a Crusade/Jihad and Bush tried to mirror the same 'righteousness' to his Iraq war."

The elves were not on a crusade, they were actually retreating from Midgard...

I think you may be pulling these "syncronisities" too far for the sake of argument.

The significance of LotR dwells on a much higher spiritual plane. :sun:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3117656 - 09/10/04 08:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I see the connections you're making, and you're partially correct. I believe many of the parallel's were drawn from war of the authors own expirences (Hitler is more parallel to Sauron, then whatever you're thinking...also the suicide bombers of Tolkiens time were Kamikaze pilots). The message however, I believe is ultimately good. The "Ring of Power," or rather, the illusion of power, must be destroyed. I am not one for World War, but it will be enevitable, as we will probably all see. The war was not merely against the Uruk-hai, the Orcs, or Sauron, it was against a war machine in favor of destroying peace in the name of power. And was it the humans battle that prevented Sauron from taking control? Nope, it was two hobbits pure of heart who destroyed the Ring of Power.

In the books the War on Sauron happened right before the Fourth Age of the Sun - a breaking of the world... a very interesting parallel for you to think about.

Oh yes, in the books, the Elves did not participate in the war at all. They departed into the Undying Lands. That part was added in the movies because people would probably have distaste for the Elves due to their decision.

I love the entire LotR collection (the books are better, by far).


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (09/10/04 08:26 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #3117670 - 09/10/04 08:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What did the suicide bombers have in common with Iraq? As far as I am told they were from the Al Quaida network.




The Iraq war cashed in on the emerging stereotype that emerges about Islam and the entire Middle East here in the West.

If the average Joe hears "Islam" he does not think of high Prayer being proclaimed from a mosque minarette, carried by the winds over a Desert under a full-eclipse sun...

They think of terrorism and oppression and women being oppressed in the orange glow of an airliner driven into the WTC.

It was part of "The War on Terrorism" and was a campaing alleged to be about "terroristic weapons of mass destruction of a rogue nation".
So the image of a suicide bomber is relevant, even if coincidental (if you believe in coincidence)

I said its for this thread best to take the movies as the template as they comprise the contemporary pop image of it.
I know the books are quite different in regard to some crucial aspects.

Quote:

The significance of LotR dwells on a much higher spiritual plane.



:smile: Elaborate!


To quote Gandalf: "Open war is upon us". Indeed as I see it things will get worse before they get better and most of us will see some pretty dire international events I think.
As I see it the tide of the Social Revolution of the 1960s is receding and a general harshening is noticable in international politics as well as in personal attitudes of many on international forums.
Right now there is more psychedelics use then in the 1960s yet common psychedelic idealism is at an all-time low.


In Tolkien's terms it seems that Sauron is taking hold again.


But my reason for starting the thread is to discuss the actual spiritual significance of the modern LOTR legend. The books were clearly written before the 1960s Social Revolution Or Tolkien wouldn't have written them like he did, I think. He was in the latter days of Victorian England writing as a veteran of World War One trench warfare (one of the biggest Hells of 20th century war) writing his trilogy in World War Two when there actually was a Sauron in Berlin. The books reflect those times.

But the movies reflect our times, apperarantly, because they were also very successful. What I am wondering about is whether there is a deeper symbolism present then a cultural one, even beyond the centuries-long tides that he used in writing his stories.
Would the symbolisms still hold power in the year twenty-thousand?
What is cultural and are there perhaps things of lasting value to the Saga?

Indeed the destroying of the Ring by the innocent Hobbits is a very powerful image you see reflected in many cultures. Its a likely candidate for lasting value.
Please note there is no mention of a God in LOTR and that Sauron was merely a (demonic) being of great evil, and incidentally is the closest thing to a deity present on Middle Earth..






Tolkien insisted that Orcs are irredeemable and he had much discussion with high clergy regarding that one. At the time Christian churches approached the LOTR very seriously, probing its theology.



--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Edited by Asante (09/10/04 09:18 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3118005 - 09/10/04 12:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I havn't seen any of the movies but am enjoying this thread. I used to find the eleven characters to be "wierd". Then I came across this article describing the eleven way and see them in a new light. I thought to share it here for those who resonated with the eleven of these movies. If you arn't interested in the eleven, then pass by this reply.


Ethical behavior is an odd question for an Elf to consider because
Ethics is more a basic rule set rather than a rule-feel. Elves work
by feel; it is a very kinesthetic experience. Even the logic is
sensual . . . not so much a body-feel, as tends to be described by
the term usually, but more of a reactive feel. It is more a meta-
kinesthetic experience. If some behavior is "right", it tends to be
a feeling of flow, where it is almost a given that the behavior is
appropriate and needed. There is a surety there, one of a deep
knowing that the action is the most correct one.

The closer an Elf is to their basic core, the stronger this flow-
feel comes. Sometimes there is no explanation for an action unless
the Elf feels out the right current and sees where it flow from.
This is possibly the problem many have with the Elves. They seem so
sure of themselves when they act, but rarely give a full explanation
for what they did. Elves tend to see things as self-evident.

"For those who know, no explanation is necessary. . . for those who
do not, no explanation will suffice."

An Elf may give an indication to the source-flow, but does not
expect that explanation will help in understanding. Multiple
currents may cloud the issues, and conflicting flows may occur. The
Elf is aware of the flow he/she feels most comfortable in and will
follow it more often than they will follow anything else. The more
aware Elves endeavor to understand the flows they walk so to better
know what they personally embody. This helps them so that they may
be able to let another have a clue as to why they do some things.

At this point, the question arises, "What is this idea of Core?" The
core is that essential kernel that pulls the self about it. It is
that inner essence that acts as the reference point for all actions
external. It is that "feel" that any embodied being is strving to
bring into __expression in the gestalt reality that is created by
the interaction of all beings.

The idea is to embody the clearest flow of the inner core as
possible, to draw to that core the most refined __expression of it
as possible in any given environment. It does not matter so much if
it seems logical in comparison to other actions. What matters is
that it is in tume with the core, and the actions are the best
possible to express that . . . nothing more, nothing less.

Memories play a part in understanding the core, and there are
multiple paths that can help explain the relation between memory and
self, of the dance between the selves and Ethics.

The Path of ReMemory is a path of confusion and doubt, a path that
brings into question the past and the future. It is a path that asks
one to examine past (and future) identities, and to chose what to do
with them. Does one allow those past selves to take over, to
overrule the present self in importance? Does one attempt to meld
the past and the present? Or does one utilize the lessons of selves
past, and forge a new present and future with added insight gained
from these personal ancestors?

The author, for example, has chosen to follow the path of the
refinement of the self, utilizing the snippets of self that pop up
from the past to inspire and instruct the present, to give new
avenues for the present being. This rather than cobble together a
patchwork soul that must be constantly re-examined at each new
juncture. The past selves have their own lives to lead. Perhaps this
sentiment can be summed up in the statement "I am not those people,
but a new __expression of the current that they also embody."

ReMemory is the re-remembering of past selves. These memories are
not complete. They are images and re-interpretations of selves past
through the filter of the present. They are not the same as who
those selves were previously. They are an interaction between the
mind-self as it is now, and the energetic patterns; An imperfect
image seen through shifting layers of shadow. They may seem to be
real, but are they?

Perhaps they are simply energetic patterns triggered by the present,
responding to a resonance with that past that an embodiment of our
core encountered.

How does one respond if the present resonance relates to a past (or
future) one more than can be denied? Does one allow that resonance
to take over, to overshadow and guide the weaker one of the present?

Perhaps not. It is more incubment on the present self to get
stronger, to develop that deep tie with the inner core, rather than
allow another resonance to take over. To lose the self is to do all
the other embodiments of that inner truth a disservice, and it
weakens the fabric of the selves all throughout the continuum of
being.

We are not only responsible to ourselves, but to all other aspects
of our being. We are beholden to the core of our own current to
embody it as best we can in any environment we walk. Thus the danger
of the Path of Rememory is a test of how we deal with knowledge of
other selves....how will we use that information and knowledge to
make the selves stronger?

In essence the "Elven Ethic" of this path is to find the most
resonant "feel" of this personal flow and enact it into being. The
more refined and "fine tuned" the __expression, the more "ethical"
it is. That which strengthens the core feel in the now is the most
ethical, as it strengthens the strands of being.

====================================================


The Elven Way
by Ilon Bluesky
From Elven Glen: Vol. 1, Issue 1, page 3

Elves are of a special nature. They are sometimes gay and playful,
sometimes musing and contemplative. Their magical Way is as
difficult to describe as the way the wind whips your hair about on
an autumn afternoon, or the way the forest smells on a spring
morning. Utterly natural and largely spontaneous, the elven Way
includes all others in its eclecticism while it excludes them in its
lack of concrete structure.

For this reason, it may be difficult to spot an elf right away. They
may be engaged in activities which seem foreign to any elven
stereotype. Since their movements coordinate with the underlying
Song of Nature, however, given time even an engaged elf can be
distinguished quite easily. Yet spotting an elf will not really
allow a glimpse of their mystical Way, for such is their magick that
it blends into their surroundings much as a cloud dissipates in the
sky.

In fact, it is more accurate to say that elven magick is absorbed
by, or becomes, their environment. Magick for elves is less a labor
and more a part of their very being. Those skilled in magick dance
in attunement to the essence of All in the very act of living their
lives, whatever its form may be. Natural power flows out from them
and heals everything it touches. To some in their sphere of
influence this may seem uncomfortable or painful, while to others it
is a joyous experience.

This doesn't mean that the elven Way is easy or that those who walk
it face less of a challenge than those on more structured paths
toward the Source.

Elves often begin their journey from little spiritual foundation.
Their parents provide them with none, or that which their parents do
provide is released in emotional abhorrence or dashed to pieces by
critical intellect. Cut loose, they face a most challenging dilemma -
- whether to begin an alternate path put forward by the Elders or to
forge a new path through the wilderness of spirit. Most fall
somewhere between these extremes, mixing together that which seems
familiar and attempting to weave a fabric allowing them independence
and freedom to express their sometimes unusual tastes.

Yet even these are only the initial steps along the elven Way. They
may also develop relationships with the powers Faerie (by whatever
name), and friends among the various nature spirits, travel the
outer reaches of the elemental planes, locate and worship the Star
Goddess or other worthy deities, seek out the Fountain of
Immortality, or trespass the Summerlands, among many other
courageous and potentially dangerous adventures.

None of these endeavors in and of themselves constitutes an exercise
of elven magick. Each may provide a puzzle-piece, a key to unlock
the door that leads toward the mystery known to some as the Secret
of Merlin, the Art of the Elven Sages, and the lifeblood of Faerie
children everywhere.

While these words may sound rather precise, they only hint at the
nature of ways elven, especially regarding arts of true magick.
Along the elven Way are signposts pointing toward an indescribable
path of magick which participates greatly in the patterned, cosmic
ebb and flow of Universal Tides. Those who navigate these waters do
so without the aid of boat or sail. The waters have been called 'the
sub-conscious realm', yet this minimizes the beauty and complexity
of such an expanse.

Elves trained in the ways of Seeing and Exploring move within this
dark demesne as an otter swims among the seaweed forests off the
California coast. They learn the highways and byways, gradually
losing themselves in the ecstasy of discovery, revealing the purest
and deepest magick of their being.

The elven Way is not a particular form, it is a style. It is not
exactly a well-worn path, but is more accurately an art of path-
walking. It is not a mindset, it is an attitude, a commitment to
eternal youth, the honoring of the Old Ones, and a vow to serve the
Mystery of Life.

mail]emeraldliberationfront88@yahoo.com[/mail]


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3118201 - 09/10/04 01:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

They conveniently leave out that most people I have quizzed online agreed that the most judgemental and 'righteously cruel' players of online RPGs tend to be those that play Elves exclusively :evil:

They are hardest to argue with, always got the book handy and are convinced its their way or the cobblestone highway.

Be my guest and browse past a Dungeons & Dragons forum: it's striking how many Elves 'suck' as compared to most other characters :smirk:

Some of the best online RP people played Elves evcery now and then but the very worst all had in common that they played Elves exclusively. Among players of Orcs and Uruk-hai on the other hand I notice a trend for accepting, easy going attitudes and willingness to reach an agreement by letting a feather here and there.
OK, there's the occasional hard SOB like me in the Orc camp but ikt is odd that the people who play Elves in RP are not seldom as noxious in morals as Tolkiens Orcs would be in the lack thereof.

Let's discuss it further!


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Edited by Asante (09/10/04 01:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3118409 - 09/10/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I havn't seen any of the movies and I don't know the characters or how the elven are portrayed. I don't know a thing about dungeons and dragons either.

My understanding of the elven is that they are a bridge between the planet and the galactics.

My understanding is also that they resonate at a frequency of earth just a notch from ours leaving them imperceptable to us. However, many humans have soul aspect ties with these elven ( akin to a parrallel life) and are sub consciously influenced by the other eleven self.

I'm sorry , but I don't know anything about the LOTR or D&G versions to discuss anything related to those versions. I will still enjoy reading this thread if others discuss it with you. Symbology is relatable.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePanoramix
Getafix
Male

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3118648 - 09/10/04 03:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Where was that first article from, getjiggy? I quite liked it, it'd work fairly well as a description of Wu Wei.

Yeah, I always had a problem with the irredeemability of orcs until I read the Simarillion where it covers how they first got made and all that. I don't think genocidal parallels apply though, because the orcs and Uruk-Hai are suppose to be something thoroughly non-human. I guess this could just support the demonizing of one's enemies as a means of releaving people's ethical objections towards the act of killing them, turning mass-murder into a brave and 'necessary' acts of soldiery. For all I know the orcs were really swell guys. But if I'm going to accept the premise of an Undying Land peopled by elves and gods and demi-gods in the West, I might as well go in on the idea of orcs being irredeemably 'evil'.

And I thought Tolkien said on more than one occaison that the Lord of the Rings was not intended to reflect the Second World War in any way and that the storyline had been concieved well before the war broke out, didn't he?


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Panoramix]
    #3118819 - 09/10/04 03:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I was wrong. Tolkien wrote it during WW1.

Sauron is not the only diety in LotR, not at all. Gandalf calls upon Ea during his battle with the Balrog. There are many deities in LotR, here are just SOME of the good ones: Eru (the one/the void), Ea (he that is, emerged from the void), the Ainur (first sentient creation of Eru, later became Elves), the Valar, the Maiar (Gandalf used to be Maiar, but he became a Istari to better help the peoples of Middle Eart), even the Elves themselves are somewhat deities, dude theres a lot of good spirits in the world of Middle Earth.

Wiccan, I dont see what you're asking to discuss. Be blunt and to the point and I'll do my best to respond.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (09/10/04 03:56 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Panoramix]
    #3118971 - 09/10/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It came from the Emerald Liberation Front (ELF) people who are in touch with their elven selves and the eleven realms. Their e-mail address is at the bottom of the article. You can mail them and request to be put on a list to receive articles.

Be for warned, the articles go places that are mind blowing and or make many uncomfortable. A lot of it comes from a duality perspective which is okay because buttons can be pushed and you can identify where sub conscious duality thinking and healing of it is in order.

On the other hand, if you start buying into the duality version of our galactic past, you'll resonate with fear, oppositions and negativity. I would only reccommend them for people who know how to see beyond duality or who can easily transcend that stuff. Even then, I wouldn't reccomend them. They hit a bunch of people hard and it took many weeks or months to reintegrate themselves.

They can read with distortion to a sensitve because duality truths are distortions of the unity truths behind them. It seems we have to transcend the duality to get to the unity. Just don't get stuck in it for long.

The info is compelling, much is explained and it's easy to get pulled into.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Panoramix]
    #3118989 - 09/10/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Tolkien also said that the mainland British (not the Commonwealth which he loathed) were "the Hobbits and Elves of this earth".

When his son was stationed on an US army base he said how he regretted that his son "now was stationed amidst the Orcs".

Other cooments he made seem to point at the thought that a person was an Orc or Elf by his actions. But if he did think so at some time, the Orcish irredeemability and inherent wickedness combines unfavorable with that. Please note that Tolkien after spent part of his childhood in old-time South Africa{/i] went to live in Middle-England which rurally basically looks like the pastoral Hobbit Shire.

If you play it psychologically Tolkien got "shellshock" in WW2 after having seen his buddies blown to shreds hanging in the barbed wire and then rotting off of them in the stalemate of Trench Warfare, which would make the Enemy behave and become demonized like his later Orcs, and their irredeemability a way to cop out of him and his buddies shelling the German trenches.
A guy gets fucked up by those things.

But also note that the Orcs were driven from battle to battle by fear and the whip, which clearly suggests an unwillingness to serve Evil rather then a desire to berserk and kill.
This disqualifies them as Demonic archetypes. Orcs were created from Elves, tortured and twisted into vile beings.

If Elves were impure (meaning capable of acts of Evil) then Orcs by default had to be capable of acts of Good as the force of Chaos cannot create a perfection of higher order then.. Order itself.

Non human is not important. If a being is sentient and stands as a race of their own their eradication is genocide in the strict sense, as opposed to a flower thats driven to extinction.

After battle the humans were given a choice to repent, and their dead buried, but the Orcs were to be burned in towering mass cremation piles so that their vileness would not pollute the lands.
An odd stance after the N?remberg trials. In The Two Towers, when Isengard fell, he distinctly describes a mushroom cloud of epic proportions. Perhaps he did not want to admit it to himself but the second world war played a huge part in his story.

Its all too well known he re-wrote lots of stuff; the "Goblins" of the cute book The Hobbit later on in L O/T R were named Orcs, being one and the same race, with the Uruk-hai as ?ber-bastards who were twisted some more.

His "demonizing" of the Uruk-hai (who were, lets face it, utter bastards as he wrote them so they were unsavory chaps) in my view is the demonizing of Enemy as done in many a war, I agree 100% with that!

Peter Jackson mauled the Orcs beyond belief in the latex SFX department. They look like sown-together roadkill like in his zombie movie "Braindead/Dead Alive" (the goriest horror movie ever made) which had to be done because thctor realized that if he shot just one scene that made you think about what was done to those beings the movie would rub off as very, well, fascist-like.

Its well-known Tolkien literature is appreciated by neonazi groups who see it as a justification for their race theories (but then again those warped minds see milk/chocolate milk segregation in the supermarked fridge as justification for their ill ideas)
These orgs try to actively recruit in the roleplaying gaming world, which added in some nations and states for the outlawing of games like Dungeons and Dragons. (people fantasizing the hours away are as dangerous to the state then people on LSD it seems.. just think what we want you to LOL)

My worry was that he so royally succeeded in swift demonisation to the point of the cinema audience cheering rather sadistic scenes and some actually talking in the lobby about "those f*cking Orcs" which is beyond me :eek:

Lately politicians (not meaning Bush but rather the Texan Oil family that spawned Gulf Wars I and II and shot over 300 tons of depleted Uranium, a nuclear waste, in the populated desert while said ammunition is so harmless that is forbidden to be used for target practice on US territory) have been highly effective in demonizing entire regions of the world by just about the same mechanism.
People seem eager to generalize.

To return to LOTR (= Lord Of The Rings) it is clear that powerful archetypes are used. Personally I have abandoned the concept of Good and Evil to look for motivators beyond those acts, which are Euphoria and Dysphoria.

If I look at the "good races" and the "wicked races" i notice a certain difference in skintone as well as an inclination towards more tribal dress and organisation structure.
My question: If you were to extrapolate Orcs and Elves to humans in our world.. how would you interpret those symbolisms?
To me it reeks of racism, and thats as high now as it is was in the World Wars, except now its much less institutionalized.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If I pull the hatred out of the equasion and the War of the Ring too, I see a perhaps more interesting parallel:
The Elves are more the ascetics while the Orcs are more hedonists: Elves seem more in favor of temperance and subtle graces, self control whilst Orcs are into endulging in the earthly pleasures and letting go.

I think in our world a Tolkien Elf would be a vegetarian drinking herbal tea whilst Orcs would mainline heroin and share needles like there's no tomorrow.

We clearly need a balance between our Inner Elf and our Inner Orc in the spiritual sense. In this duality it would be unfavorable if one side were to vanish because the balance would be lost.
Does anyone subscribe to Elves and Orcs as archetypes of the  Ascetic  and the  Hedonist ?

This duality is of the highest importance in our drug-using community.


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: psyka]
    #3119065 - 09/10/04 04:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sauron is not the only diety in LotR, not at all. Gandalf calls upon Ea during his battle with the Balrog. There are many deities in LotR, here are just SOME of the good ones: Eru (the one/the void), Ea (he that is, emerged from the void), the Ainur (first sentient creation of Eru, later became Elves), the Valar, the Maiar (Gandalf used to be Maiar, but he became a Istari to better help the peoples of Middle Eart), even the Elves themselves are somewhat deities, dude theres a lot of good spirits in the world of Middle Earth.




You are absolutely right on that but to my knowledge Sauron was the only one who was phystcallyu ands actively manifest.

Quote:

Wiccan, I dont see what you're asking to discuss. Be blunt and to the point and I'll do my best to respond.




OK sorry for being unclear: My objective is to compare and discuss the Spiritual symbolisms and archetypes we see in LOTR, particuarly the movies, because most who might read this never read the books and we must include them and not clique like we do LOL!

The good and the bad, not to raise or bash the LOTR itself but to see if our Higher Selves can have something out of this. After all its one of the most influential works of fiction of the 20th century.

Just like the site where folks get in touch with their Elven site there even are Elven and Hobbit Tarot cards out nowadays and some people have taken up seriously praying in Sindarin Elvish :eek: which means its more then just a fic to many people and holds Spiritual merit.


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe_Hobbit
Bilbo Baggins
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,382
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3119142 - 09/10/04 05:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but I wanted to add something because I'm a Tolkien fan.

There are no allegories in Tolkien's writing (religious, historical, etc.). He didn't base his story on anything. It's just a story. Read the introduction to The Silmarillion for a direct quote.

I voted ...Movies because I think the movies are good for what they are, but I couldn't enjoy them. After reading LOTR 4 times over, I noticed every change and I couldn't get over them. I voted Good story ofcourse. I wouldn't have read his books that many times if I didn't like the story (alot). And I voted ...Message because I don't think there was an intended message in his writing. Like I said before, he wrote the books to write the books - to tell a good story. You can take your own meaning from the story. He doesn't push anything on you, though.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #3119220 - 09/10/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

HobbitCG..

If you havent read the thread you its not wise to make a statement like that as we discussed that very topic at length.

Since you are HobbitCG title "Bilbo Baggins" please read the thread and join in on it.. you might find it interesting.

One of my big growth momentsv was when I discovered that when people say "No thats not the case" that it is just as likely to be so.
There are things you dont know and dont want to know about yourself.
If he didnt base his story on anything he would be God.

But he's not. He studied legend and folklore at great length.
The "viking-like" inhabitants of the Orkney islands, Scotland called and call themselves the Orks and they raped and pillaged the lands and were mystified as blackened demon beasts with red piercing eyes.. Orc stems from the Greek "Orcus" which is the heart of the Underworld. Rings, crowns etc that posess its wearer are aplenty in European folklore as are Elves and Trolls and Goblins and Dwarves. He compiled a modern Legend from old tales and his own life's experience and he knew he did.

I'm attacking you nor Tolkien, its just dialog. Please drop in!


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,321
Loc: On the Border
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3120273 - 09/10/04 10:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Tolkein was very exact in stating that his books contained NO inherant symbolism, and that he hated to see them taken apart in this way instead of just being enjoyed. They were pure entertainment and nothing else. That was Tolkein's own view. The only influences cited were "Beowulf" and "She". There is NO direct spiritual correlation.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3120679 - 09/11/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tolkein was very exact in stating that his books contained NO inherant symbolism, and that he hated to see them taken apart in this way instead of just being enjoyed. They were pure entertainment and nothing else. That was Tolkein's own view. The only influences cited were "Beowulf" and "She". There is NO direct spiritual correlation.




Quote:

One of my big growth moments was when I discovered that when people say "No thats not the case" that it is just as likely to be so.
There are things you dont know and dont want to know about yourself.
If he didnt base his story on anything he would be God.




Tolkien was an expert in writing stories. He was not an expert in self-analysis. Sigmund Freud said everybody had a maternal complex.. except himself. And he genuinely meant that.

I'm pretty well versed in psychology and I'm a writer. His stories spill over with rich symbolisms and it is in the tradition of European folklore.

If his stories did not hold powerful symbols and archetypes of a widespread nature it would not even have been published. Mr Tolkien can wish ten times over that there is no symbolism of any kind in it but its unavoidable that there would be and there are.

The whole plot of LOTR (innocents take on evil--endure hardships-- rise to a higher plane-- are cleansed and succeed) is the traditional Greek hero saga storyline and anyone who studies literature can tell you that. If people actually -pray- in JRR's Elven language, if Elven Tarot decks are made and one of the posters here drops off a link of a site of people who seek purity in their Inner Elf in a very serious fashion.. It is impossible, that is zero possibility, that no Spiritual archetypes are involved.

Like Tolkien denial does not lessen a truth. He didnt want to put symbolism in but he did. He even called the inhabitants of the British mainland the hobbits and elves of this world. Tell me that that isn't a man gripped by symbolism.
But let me let Tolkien do the talking:

Quote:

He wrote to his son Christopher in the Royal Air Force in May 1944, reminding him of the consequences of a victory obtained through using the Ring of Power:



But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed new Saurons, and slowly turn men and Elves into Orcs. Not that in real life things are as clear cut as in a story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side.... Well, there you are: a hobbit amongst the Uruk-hai. [66]




Quote:

The Norse sagas and the closely related Germanic mythologies were a great and very dear source of inspiration for Tolkien. That Hitler took these traditions and adapted them to suit his totalitarian ideology, was near-equal to blasphemy: "Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light." [67] Despite this, his sympathy went out to the German people towards the end of the war. In January 1945 he wrote to his son:


The appalling destruction and misery of this war mount hourly: destruction of what should be (indeed is) the common wealth of Europe... Yet people gloat to hear of the endless lines, 40 miles long, of miserable refugees, women and children pouring West, dying on the way... But why gloat! We were supposed to have reached a stage in civilization in which it might be still necessary to execute a criminal, but not to gloat, or to hang his wife and child by him while the orc-crowd hooted. [68]





Quote:

As he pointed out to Christopher in one of his letters to the base in South Africa, May 1944:


Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course. For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good is on one side and various modes of badness on another. ... But it does make some difference who are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se! [69]





so its near impossible to maintain that Tolkien did not harbor strong and direct symbolisms from his archertypes to the real-life world


Quotes are taken from The Image Of The Enemy --Race and Class in Tolkien's Works


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,321
Loc: On the Border
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3120721 - 09/11/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I have had an abiding interest in Norse Folklore and Legend and am very well versed in texts such as The Elder Edda and The Younger Edda, and I have read over 25 of the sagas. I am very well aware that he borrowed much from Norse and Welsh folklore, but just because you intentionally copy symbolism from The Elder Edda and The Mabinogion does not mean that your writings have a spiritual meaning that others should take heed of. Like his good friend C.S. Lewis, Tolkien was an faithful Christian, and unlike Lewis, this also did not find it's way into his writings. Stories of good versus evil are traditional plotlines of the ancient legends that Tolkein sought to emulate. Oh, yeah...to say Freud was anything but a coke snortin kook is quite ridiculous, and very out of date.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis (Retired)
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 25,716
Loc: Iceland
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3120734 - 09/11/04 12:29 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

sorry man i find this theory really silly. First of all you are infering that tolkein was somehow channeling ESP- premonitions of sept.11 and the ensuing violence and working it into his story.

I think thats silly. I also think its silly to compare arabs with uruk hai. One is a coloured human, the other is a slavering fanged ork-thing.

I mean i wont elaborate but your trying way to hard on this. Any large enough body of fiction can be interpreted or analyzed to match almost any real world situation, but why bother?

sorry just my feelin
:crazy:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAsanteA
light your candle on my love
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 51,431
Loc: Right Here - Right Now
Last seen: 11 hours, 10 minutes
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3121479 - 09/11/04 08:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i find this theory really silly




Disagreeing is only natural.. But when people find things 'weird' or 'rediculous' it is usually they didnt get what the other intended to say.

I'm not putting out a theory but rather want to discuss the symbolisms peope experience.

Its pretty clear that it would be silly that 911 (thats today, lets pray for a mediocre day)was channeled by ESP and weaved into the story.

Many people however are of the conviction that history goes in waves, repeating itself in eternal cycles.

The movie's director, Peter Jackson, chose to lay some emphasis on the suicide bomber.

I am not aquating Arabic people to Orcs. That wouldnt be silly, that would be pretty wrong.

What I do see is that LOTR is rife with World War mentality (its the Middle-Earth World War) and that the films were brought out and a big hit now, now that worldwide mentality happens to be closer to World War mentality then ever. The entire Arabic region is considered an "Evil Empire" and its people are -demonized- just like the Orcs are the archetypes of the demonised.

Large parts of your brain haven't heard of Elves, Orcs and Hobbits: they don't even know fact from fiction. These parts watch Lord of the Rings and see only human groups symbolized by nonexistant races.

The use of animals in fables to tell tales that are politically incorrect if told with humans as a means of political satire is also very established for centuries in literature and later on in political cartoons.

That the movie's harsh tale (Legolas and Gimli laughing as they in good fun count their kills, Gimli sitting on the chest of a slain enemy and shaking the axehandle to make the fresh corpse convulse) was met with near unquestioning positivity, that the demonisation was so readily accepted and several i spoke on it actually had a physically visible dislike of Orcs plain and simple means the Orcs in their heads symbolized a certain group of people and as this likely means a demonised group within society.

I dunno if i should visit the cinema more often but I cannot recall a movie which advocated racial mass murder with such explicitness and got away with it. It is a sign of the times.
The Trilogy was a sign of the times of World War One and Two and I sure as heck hate to think the timing and success of the movies indicates we are getting into World War mentality again.

But the US' new foe after the USSR is the entire Arabic/Islamic dominion. And unlike the Cold War this is a war fought with clusterbombs and MOAB bombs. The United Nations are put aside. Remember that Iraqi prison? Guantanamo bay? How a helicopter crew shot five single people, crawling on the ground, with a motorcannon from their stealth helicopter a mile away, how the world was upset with it and how it was waived by Bush itself?
This can only happen by demonisation, which in the US and in "rogue nations" is standard politics.

A surgical strike isn't carpetbombing the shit out of Baghdad and entire states with the financial cost of eradicating world hunger. A surgical strike is parachuting two platoons of Navy Seals snipers in there to decapitate the rogue leadership echelons. But somehow the entire population, the oppressed population, ended up demonized as the Enemy in many heads. "fighting Iraq/the Iraqis/the Muslims"
This is why I lay the parallel between Arabic people and the Uruk-hai: sustematic demonisation.

If Tolkien meant Uruk-hai as a symbol for "people who have lost their humaneness, delighting in cruelty" (like he clearly did in real life judging the quotes of him in my former post) and he would've gone to my local cinema, he would've found himself surrounded by "Uruk-hai" because sadistic factors were woven into his story in the movies and they were among the loudest cheered scenes.

------------------------------------------------------------------


But once again I'm clarifyiong that tiny, almost off-topic part of this thread. If somebody sees spiritual symbolisms in the peoples and situations of Lord of the rings then by all means discuss that and not get lost. The basic assumption of this thread is that there are such symbolisms, the question remaining is: which symbols do we see and what did we get out of this?


--------------------
CLICK ONE -->  :redpill:  :bluepill:  <-- GO PLACES
SEARCH ENGINE  SUPPORT TICKETS  STORE  SPONSORS/VENDORS  AMANI
PSYCHOSIS, SYNCHRONICITIES, SHAMANISM & THE SUPERNATURAL WA&F

From the Outcasts to the Incrowd, from the Clueless to the Helpful, it takes the whole Shroomery to help a n00b


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,321
Loc: On the Border
Re: of Uruk-hai and Elves: spiritual symbolism in the LOTR [Re: Asante]
    #3121543 - 09/11/04 09:24 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Also, to say that Peter Jackson was making a racist statement about Arabs is highly innacurate. You are saying a terrible thing about the man who realized the dream of presenting LOTR in movie format for all of us Tolkien fans. You make Tolkien out to be a toadstool hopping pagan, and Peter Jackson out as a neo-nazi. I see no war on terror symbolism. I see only the ancient symbolism of LOTRs rich Norse heritage. If the movie happens to carry a relevant message for us it is only because it always has, not just in the present political context.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Tripping for Recreational vs. Spiritual Purposes
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 1,805 26 09/13/04 12:56 AM
by CosmicJoke
* Hammering your girlfriend- Symbolic and Literal language.
( 1 2 all )
gettinjiggywithit 2,216 34 02/03/06 03:55 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Symbolism in Art
( 1 2 all )
MJF 1,313 25 04/18/09 12:30 AM
by flangenips
* Symbols of Unconditional Love?
( 1 2 all )
Chronic7 5,290 24 02/09/08 11:51 AM
by Draigan
* Spiritual and Philosophical implications behind LOTR
( 1 2 all )
ShroomismM
1,927 28 11/30/03 08:37 AM
by infidelGOD
* The Stages of Spiritual Growth
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 2,976 21 08/01/03 09:13 PM
by Phluck
* Spiritual Links
( 1 2 3 4 all )
ShroomismM
10,741 70 08/25/04 07:18 PM
by shaggy101
* The Matrix - RELOADED and REVOLUTIONS, spiritu-, and philo-! johnnyfive 1,127 8 01/14/03 07:02 PM
by minusrestraint

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
4,134 topic views. 3 members, 5 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Shroom Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.192 seconds spending 0.017 seconds on 21 queries.