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OfflineSneezingPenis
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The wheel, and the circle...
    #4265286 - 06/06/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Why is it that the wheel is considered an invention, and the circle a discovery?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265299 - 06/06/05 09:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

because the wheel is an object that lets you move faster, and the circle is purely a concept?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265307 - 06/06/05 09:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

or are you saying exactly what i just said, and just wondering why the circle isn't an invention since it's a concept?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265313 - 06/06/05 09:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Possibly because theoretically the circle is found in nature while the wheel is not?

I'm sure the wheel actually is, but it's obscure enough to find naturally occuring wheels so that the people who created it called it an invention.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265338 - 06/06/05 09:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

well, i can understand someone creating something like a wheelbarrow, and considering that invented, since you would never find one of those naturally in nature.
I just cant see someone carving stone and making just a plain wheel and saying "look at my invention", at that point, I think it would just be a sculpture/art.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265436 - 06/06/05 10:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

possessiveness..


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265454 - 06/06/05 10:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A sculpture is an invention though.

Would you say you "discovered" your sculpture or art? You would say you created or invented it. You only discover things that already occur naturally, or have occured before either by some human invention or whatnot. If you are the first one to create a non-naturally occuring device like the wheel, you would say you invented it in the end.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265462 - 06/06/05 10:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

the dude who made those faces of presidents in the rock..

he said, he did not sculpt it, but removed what was covering the sculpture..


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Gomp]
    #4265466 - 06/06/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

He obviously didn't know what he was talking about. :smirk:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265475 - 06/06/05 10:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well, Webster doesnt really help on this.... it says that the definition of invention is "Discovery, or finding".

In some roundabout way, you discover the art within you. If today I was to make a sculpture that was just nothing more than a wheel, would that still be invention?


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4265501 - 06/06/05 10:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

No, because the wheel has already been created. If you created the trihelical quadruple-spired triangle wheel though, that would be an invention, because you are creating it for the first time.

I've always simply thought of an invention as a creation of an object for the first time. If you're just pumping out wheels at a factory, you're not inventing them because they've already been created billions of times over.

Discover the art within you? I'm not sure what the means, it sounds like you're separating the "inner you" with the "outer you", when really they're one and alike.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265511 - 06/06/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

actually, gomp raises a very good point.

what if i kick a rock out of frustration, and it happens to land in such a way and place that the next person recognizes it as a perfect representation of a bird?

And what about Duchamp's claim that art is purely a subjective thing; you can take anything out of ordinary context and call it art, IHO.

There's a pebble, thats thousands of years old and has been handed down ( it can still be seen today ), that vaguely resemble's someone's face. To the people who found it, it was art. But they had nothing to do with making it.


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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265523 - 06/06/05 10:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it sounds like you're separating the "inner you" with the "outer you", when really they're one and alike.




Wrong. There exists the *possiblity* that reality is a figment of your imagination. Until you can completely rule out this possiblity, you have no basis to say the outer you = the inner you. By which system are you judging this to be true? Examine that system, I guarantee it has a flaw.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265526 - 06/06/05 10:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

no, just discovering your potential of expressing yourself in the abstract; that is what i meant by discovering it within you. If all your life you could see in your head a trihelical quadruple-spired triangle wheel, would finally one day drawing it out then make it an invention?


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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: vampirism]
    #4265529 - 06/06/05 10:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That's my whole point Morrowind. Let's look at your claim closer, as I agree with it:

You say there is a possibility that you are just the figment of your imagination. I say this is true. In this case, everything you perceive is your subjective reality. There is nothing else besides your subjective reality, including you. You are, again, your own imagination. There is no separation- you are purely a product of your own perception.

Now from the opposite viewpoint, we could call it the scientific or absolutist's viewpoint, you are purely the construct of matter organized in such a way as to produce perception and consciousness. In this case there is also no inner you and outer you- you are entirely the creation of chemical reactions, so the outer you is the inner you.

Whatever view you go with, I don't see the separation. Will you explain it to me?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Ravus]
    #4265776 - 06/06/05 11:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

But then where does your imagination spring from?

There is *so* much uncertainty, and it's not necessarily that either of the extremes you've described is true. If there is a hybrid of sorts, ala matrix, then there is separation. Nothing in one would reflect in the other.

How can you show the outer self = the inner self, that there is absolutely 0 difference? Furthermore, how can you rule out that there isn't more than outer/inner?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4266237 - 06/07/05 01:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I just cant see someone carving stone and making just a plain wheel and saying "look at my invention",

A wheel is not just a carving.

Here's the thing, a circle is a concept. It exists in nature. Someone discovered it one day, but it already existed. A wheel is much more and is the result of the unique human intellect. No other animal knows how to make a wheel and it is not found anywhere in nature.

The wheel is an engineered construct. It consists of a disk (an extension of the circle discovery), an axle, and bushing or bearing. That's why it's called an invention; because it doesn't exist without us.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The wheel, and the circle... [Re: Diploid]
    #4267203 - 06/07/05 11:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Diploid, i can see how that is an invention: the axled and bearing wheel. Maybe I always saw it as someone made just a round wheel, with nothing else, and said "Look, this is cool, it can roll really far, whatcha think we can do with it?". Round disklike objects can be found in nature, which can also roll really far.


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