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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
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A theory on potency
    #4238577 - 05/31/05 01:51 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

OK, I'm just going to write a basic outline for my theory now, then I'll update it with sources and such tomorrow. The basic theory is from my observations that mushrooms fruited from mycelia that had been "overincubated" (allowed to incubate for, say, 1-2 extra months) were much more potent than mushooms fruited as soon as the substrate was colonized. This was true with four trays that were all "overincubated".

Other indications:
1) http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/
Basically stating that psilocin (4-HO-DMT) was not found in the first 1-2 flushes of cubensis mushrooms.

2) The theory of mycelial hydroxylation of DMT. Tryptophan (found "everywhere") is decarboxylated into tryptamine, which can then be turned into DMT and then 4-ho-DMT by the mycelia. Not all of this is "proven", but I'm fairly sure that this is what happens.

3) The assertation by Baby_Hitler and others that older cakes are more potent, when consumed, than fresh cakes.

So I think that substrates being colonized by mycelia aren't really producing that much psilocybin or psilocin, I think that it's just the mycelial mass growing. After that occurs, I think that the mycelia continues to 'eat' the substrate and continues to hydroxylate the compounds and produce psilocin/psilocybin. This process takes longer than the week or ten days that the mycelia uses to colonize the substrate.

The Problem;
Due to the variance in mushroom potency due to seemingly random causes, it would be hard to conduct a test subjectivly measuring potency. I can say that that initial experience that sparked my observation involved some cambodian strain cubes. They were overincubated for about two months, cased. When I wanted to fruit them, I did a deep scratch and re-cased, then incubated another 2-3 days. Perfect pinset, and the mushrooms were amazingly potent. One point five grams would be an amazing trip, filled with C?OEV's. Back to the problem.

It's just too hard to really say that one "batch "is that much more potent. So many factors come into a trip's potency and effect.

The Experiment:
I'm going to do six trays of cambodian shrooms. All will be wild bird seed spawned to compost/straw. Three trays will be allowed to incubate until full colonization, cased and fruited shortly thereafter. Three trays will be cased and incubated for six weeks past full colonization. Upon their birthing, I will scratch (to deal with the anticipated overlay). All shrooms will be dried the same. I'll do four trips, one each weekend, on 2.0 grams of one group of shrooms. This should give me enough 'experience' with that standard dose and enough variable doses (due to random psilo content). Next month will be of the second batch.

Any suggestions for this experment? all input welcome


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OfflineKalix
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4238593 - 05/31/05 01:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'd wager you're theory is sound.. Curious to see the results of said experiment though..


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4238698 - 05/31/05 02:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I had been thinking the same thing after reading lots of stuff. I would think that when you do this experiment, it might be a good idea to do it double blind. This is what I would suggest you do: get 4 doses of each and put them in containers then have one of your friends transfer them to other containers that are labeled 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 taking not of which ones are from which batch. When you are about to trip, don't tell your friend which number you took. You write down the intensity of the trip and the number of the container you used. Don't check which is which until you are finished. This will make the experiment far more sound. To improve it still, do this same thing for a couple friends of yours. I will do the same thing. One other thing. Since mushrooms lose potency if they are stored, it might be a good idea to start the one you are overincubating 6 weeks before the other so that you fruit both at the same time, this way you remove the variable of potency loss over time. Anyway, sounds like an awesome project. 5 shrooms for you.

Peace


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4238707 - 05/31/05 02:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Good call on the double blind. I don't think shrooms lose potency over time, especially nto when dessicated, vacuum sealed and frozen.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4238831 - 05/31/05 04:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In the paper you linked the psilocin levels were low but as they got higher the psilocybin tended to get lower. Doesn't psilocin degrade faster than psilocybin? Their "street" mushrooms showed very little psilocin.

Anyway for your experiment you should work with only a single cloned specimen so you do not have variations due to mulitspore inoculation.

If you were worried about potency loss you could start some of the trays 2 months later so they would all be fruiting at the same time.

The blind test is very important especially with a drug of this nature where suggestion/placebo(ish) effects can cause a big effect.


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Edited by blackout (05/31/05 04:31 AM)


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OfflineGNIOM1498
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: blackout]
    #4239076 - 05/31/05 08:31 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I concur with ur belief. I have noticed that the mush that was the 2nd flush is more potent then the first. I have personally have experience 30 min longer duration of tripping on the 2nd versus the first with the same amount.---fresh. This is my first time comparing flushes. It would make sense that the nutes are digested more to explain the difference.


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: GNIOM1498]
    #4239373 - 05/31/05 11:19 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Good call on the double blind. I don't think shrooms lose potency over time, especially nto when dessicated, vacuum sealed and frozen.




I Agree w/ that and with your theory as well.

I've had something similar happen and noticed a difference, but it's hard to prove things with so many different vairbals...

I'd pass this along to someone would could test the chemical content, for the sake of science...Just out of coursity anyways.

Well, good luck, sounds like a great experiment :thumbup:

Quote:

5 shrooms for you.




:thumbup:

-Gnostic


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #4240256 - 05/31/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If anyone can tell me of a laboratory that would analyze these samples, confidentally of course, I'd be happy to do it and pay for the costs myself. I just don't trust that kinda stuff though. I'll keep everyone posted, it'll be a few weeks before I can start this, maybe middle of July.

Also, i'm not sure that using a clone is that big of a deal. I had a cambodian mushroom (can't ya tell that they are my hands down favorite) that grew in a very weird way. The cap was gigantic and "drooped" like a fairy-tell mushroom. I took four cuttings from it and placed them in LQ, incubated, inoc'ed WBS, spawned, cased, fruited, and the mushrooms didn't maintain that same appearance. I just can't say for sure if cloning a mushroom produces the same qualities of the initial mushroom. Even from super-dark syringes, multispore, "I" got EXCELLENT pinsets and great flushes. So, well, ye another variable for yet another time. Any other thoughts, inputs, or commentary?


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Invisiblecrazytalken
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4240328 - 05/31/05 04:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I let some of my last batch sit in the fridge for 2 weeks or so before birthing. (i forgot about them) Everyone has said they were the best yet. I would say you are right about this one. Good to see someone testing and putting facts behind it. Thanks for your contribution.


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**"Both the psychedelic dream state and the waking psychedelic state acquire great import because they reveal to life a task: to become familiar with this dimension that is causing being, in order to be familiar with it at the moment of passing from life." -Terence McKenna



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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: crazytalken]
    #4240396 - 05/31/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I wish I had a lab. I'd let you borrow it haha

Pm Agar and see if he can do anything...*Raises eyebrow*

I'd have to agree on the clone. I don't see the big deal IMO.

-Gnostic


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4240487 - 05/31/05 04:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Neuro suggested that if I did an extraction on each 'batch', I could weigh the resulting product and get an estimation as to which one contained more alkaloids. Even though the extraction 'teks' that are out there all have some problems that prevent them from being totally efficient, as long as they are equally inefficient in each instance, I'll still have numbers that show comparison.


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4240616 - 05/31/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Using the extraction is not a good idea imho because of a variety of factors. When you say they are all equally inefficient, you are assuming that you suspect all crudes from all situations would be equally pure. I would suspect that a crude from a less potent mushroom would be less pure. Further, these frequesntly prefer psilocybin or psilocin or other alkaloids. You introduce far too many variables into the equation by doing the extractions in my opinion. As a chemist, I would strongly encourage you to not do that. The only ways to accurately determine potency are: bioassay as a double blind study, NMR, GC/MS, UV-Vis spec. The crude extracts might work, but I'll give an exmple of how I could see them failing. Say that you do a boiling water extraction on mushrooms. This will prefer psilocybin over psilocin. Furthermore, psilocybin is less potent than psilocin per gram. More aged mycelium has higher psilocin levels and slightly less psilocybin if i remember correctly.

Say the concentraions were something like this

in older myc: 1% psilocin, .5% psilocybin
in younger myc: .1% psilocin, .7% psilocybin

extraction efficiency is say 90% for psilcybin and 10% for psilocin (reasonable from what I read on scifinder)

(potency of older myc)/(potency of youger myc) = (1+.7*.5)/(.1+.7*.7) = 1.35/.59 = 2.28

(crude weight of older myc)/(crude weight of younger myc) = (1*.1+.5*.9)/(.1*.1+.7*.9) = .55/.64 = .85

you would conclude that younger myc is more potent when in fact the opposite is true. This assumes certain things, but the point of a well desiagned experiment is to only measure the variable you are seeking to measure. Your results would in my mind be less reliable than people's experiences with older vs. yougner myc producing mushrooms. Anyway, I am really excited about your experiment, and I may design one at some point too. Good luck.

Peace


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Offlinehipa
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4242858 - 06/01/05 03:11 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I have just come upon this question of potency and length of incubation in a lucky time. I happen to have some tubs (birdseed into dung/straw) that have been sitting far to long, usually I case immediately upon mycelia covering, however I went on vacation and these tubs are probably two weeks overdue. I believe I shall case two of them soon, then wait a month or so and case the other two or three. What do you think?
Also, I have been problems with potency, I usually allow the mushrooms to mature completely, should I pick them a bit earlier will that help? Also, i use a dehydrator and when it is totally full I think heat might build up, could a food dehydrator get too hot and degrade the potency?

Thanks much for any help

Hipa


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Offlineblackout
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: hipa]
    #4243050 - 06/01/05 05:18 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hipa said:
should I pick them a bit earlier will that help?
could a food dehydrator get too hot and degrade the potency?




Yes and Yes.
I would put the dehydrator on its lowest level. Many report early picked immature shrooms to be more potent, it also prevents them sporulating on the casing, makes them easier to pick and dry out.


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Edited by blackout (06/01/05 05:19 AM)


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: hipa]
    #4244120 - 06/01/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yea, I used to note problems with potency as well.  When I switched to birdseed spawned to compost/straw, I never noticed those issues again :smile:  I don't think that picking them earlier matters, it's just nice not to have to worry about a purple crust of spores. 

I'd case those tubs and let them incubate some more.  If this theory works and you go from barely potent shrooms to 1.5g knock you on your ass shrooms, we'll have more anecdotal evidence.

Also, food dehydrators are OK.  I use a convection oven with a "DRY" setting, set for 120?F.  It blows hot air over the shrooms.  I like to ut a layer of damp-rid under the shrooms to absorb any moisture released and keep the rH low in the oven.  As long as you aren't drying at boiling plus temperatures, you'll be ok.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4245600 - 06/01/05 09:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Nice! Maybe longer incubation times + more nutrient rich substrates can do the trick...

Imagine "your standard medium recipe" plus sesame (high in tryptophan,could that help?) or pollen (factors that might help pinning) or some of those protein all round supplement powders used by body builders + longer incubation times...

Negative feedback loops in psilocybin/psilocin production could play a role but hey ,nothing lost trying it!


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InvisibleThumpaCap
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: Psiloman]
    #4254287 - 06/04/05 12:39 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

very interesting


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4255277 - 06/04/05 10:25 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Since when have older cakes been more potent than new cakes? Mate in all my years ive never heard anyone who knows their shit tell me that before. ANd ive heard it all - different strains/different trips, or the old favourite 'the mushroom gets less potent once the veil breaks' bullshit...
Man every time i come back here there is always some other bizarre idea that someone has suddenly decided is fact, and then every one else catch on to the bizarre idea and all start repeating it to make them look like they know what they are talking about and there you go - its fact. Then six weeks later new people take over and its forgotten again.
I like your theory mate, but the problem is that im pretty sure what you trying to prove is actually fundamentally incorrect.


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4255363 - 06/04/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Oh? Subjective opinion is just that, but when everyone notices the same thing, you have to wonder if it's more than anecdotal. Baby_Hitler is the one that stated that older cakes seemed more potent to him. The report shown above, done at a research institution, shows more psilocin with later flushes of mushrooms, meaning from older substrate. The world needs ignorant nay-sayers like you like we need another Hitler.


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: A theory on potency [Re: SoopaX]
    #4255379 - 06/04/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Actually i have the Beug and Bigwood (1982)study - which i believe is the study he is quoting - right in front of me, as well as the Stivje and DeMeijer (1993) and the Gartz study in (1994).
The Beig and Bigwood study demonstrates that the ratio or psilocybin/psilocin changes in the FRUITBODIES between flushes - the relative potency is actually pretty steady, but their is an increase in psilocin and a decrease is psilocybin demonstrated between the flushes of this small study. Since psilocin is more volatile, it is actually more likely that the original flushes with higher psilocybin contents are more potent.
And no where in the study does it mention a research institute - big words might sound impressive, but they dont mean much mate :smile:
So you see clearly that unlike u i actually know what im talking about... Now who is the ignorant na-sayer. Do some research and get a clue...

FUck mate - people believed for years that there was a difference between potency of caps versus stems - we now know its not true, but some stoner made it up and all you yanks bought it as factual.


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