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Offlinegdr
researcher
Registered: 01/02/03
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Loc: new york
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
substrate change-->yield/potency increase
    #1184081 - 01/02/03 05:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

if one wished to utilize the same procedures and strains that one had employed with brf/pf tek style colonization and fruiting, but wished to enhance results by changing growth medium only, what growth medium might offer better yield and or potency.

or does brf already offer an optimal nutritional supply?

has anyone had increased yield/potency with any of the following or other supplements?

yeast exract
tryptone peptone
supplemental salts and or posphate complexes
broad amino acid supplements

i'd like to avoid discussion about adding tryptamines or other metabolic intermediates in order to directly increase potency and focus speficifally on nutrients

what advantage do different whole grains offer over simple brf recipes?
thanks in advance for all constructive help.


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Anonymous

Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1185253 - 01/02/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Adding diversified supplements to the substrate will prevent Substrate specificity of the strains you are growing. Yields can and do increase with supplementation, so do your chances for contamination.

If you have succeded with PF, try some bulk. Just crumble your colonized cakes into some pasteurized manure. Yields will dramatically increase, and the time it takes to get the yields will drastically reduce.

Try different supplements and see what works for you. If you are interested in increased yields GO BULK. Large volume of substrate leads to large yields.



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OfflineStarspawn
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1185448 - 01/02/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

At RalphstersSpores.com i saw a supplement that claims to boost yield 80 %.There is a co co fiber substrate that must be supplemented because coir is not nutritional enough.I Don't know if anything non nutritional could be supplemented enough but you can check it at RalphstersSpores.com


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Starspawn]
    #1187644 - 01/03/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

millet = thicker, stronger, more robust fruits, bigger yields and much better potency.


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OfflineNumba9
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1187751 - 01/03/03 01:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with Bluemeanie....... Millet rocks !!!!!!! The last PESA Amazonians I harvested off of seed kicked my ASS !!!!!!!!


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Remember..what the Door Mouse said..."Feed your Head".......... Jefferson Airplane


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Offlineesin
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1189462 - 01/04/03 07:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry for asking this question which does not directly concern the topic of the thread.

Do you find millet superior to other grains used for substrates? for instance rye?

I've been using rye b/c it's the most easy to get where i live. However in my last trip to my health food store i found a small millet bag that i promptly purchased. Praparation took a bit more labor than rye b/c i had to simmer the grains before PCooking. One test jar was inoculated yesterday with 2cc's pan. cyanescens sporewater. Hope everything goes right.


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OfflineSkryllz
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: esin]
    #1190994 - 01/04/03 09:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Millet is just birdseed(well one kind of seed in birdseed, but the rest of the birdseed won't hurt), you can find it many places like pet shops, grocery stores, Wal-mart, etc.


Edited by Skryllz (01/04/03 09:04 PM)


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InvisibleUna
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 970
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1191906 - 01/05/03 08:58 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Rye can be done in bulk :laugh:

It's an easy one step process not as messy as making PF substrate (which really sucks) and yields are larger.



 


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Offlineresin
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Una]
    #1192386 - 01/05/03 12:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think millet is better than anything. All you do is add the millet and water in a jar and pc, No simmering. It also breaks apart way better than brf cakes and potency increases. It does give strong tasting mushrooms though. Ive read that rye is basically the same potency wise as brf.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: resin] * 1
    #1197365 - 01/07/03 10:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

IMHO, don't buy into the potency hype. My experience over years of cultivating and tripping is that potency is way to general for damn near anybody who is going to be posting on these boards to judge accurately. Not to mention how many different variables are at play other than substrate.

Anyway, millet is a great substrate and is extremely easy to prepare. Throw as much of it as you want in a bit pot or tupperware, fill with an excess of water, let sit 24-36 hrs. Strain and pc in jars or bags. Doesn't get much easier than that. I think sixtango has written more specific instructions along these lines if anybody wants to search for it.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinecomario2
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1197407 - 01/07/03 11:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

mycophile, any ideas on whether preecooking millet (30-40 mns simmering) is absolutely identical in result to simply soaking for 24-36hrs? any relative adv or disadv in these two ways of preparing the millet? :smile: 


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comario


"crusaders against emotional poverty"


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: comario2]
    #1207499 - 01/10/03 05:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I've been interested in millet, mostly b/c Verm medium grade isn't of avail. And this talk of it yielding more potency. someone please set the story straight if you simmer or let it soak. I've read teks, but I want to hear from successful experience.

maybe I should look at grow logs,
Dilauded


Edited by Dilauded (01/10/03 07:42 PM)


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Offlinecriminulmindid
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Dilauded]
    #1208040 - 01/10/03 09:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

my friends had success simmering rye berries for 30 mins straining then pcing. with millet no success simmering. soaking is the way to go. also make sure you get "un-hulled" millet . Correct me if im wrong.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: comario2]
    #1214284 - 01/13/03 12:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I have successfully simmered millet, but it is a little more tricky to simmer than some other grains. Millet tends to burst a little more easily than some other grains such as wheat or milo or rye etc. Therefore I think soaking to be the easiest way to prep. Differences in peoples batch sizes, stoves and cookware prevent a "cook it like this for this long" recipe that works for everyone.

Quote:

relative adv or disadv in these two ways of preparing the millet?



properly soaked millet works identically to properly steeped millet. Advantages are personal preference, want to be ready to pc in 30 minutes, or tommorrow? Want to bother cooking, or just let it sit? It's up to you. IMO, soaking is more difficult to foul up, while simmering may take a little trial and error learning your stove, cookware, grain, batch size specifics.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineRaadt
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Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Una]
    #1214361 - 01/13/03 12:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Una, is that a drop of silicone above the filter patch, for innoculation?


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Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: criminulmindid]
    #1214367 - 01/13/03 12:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I just get millet. Not sure about it being un-hulled. Basically, I've used millet in every form I've ever seen it, and I don't think I've ever seen it specified as hulled or not. I've used: bags from grocery of organic millet (arrowhead mills I believe is the brand, pricey), bulk millet by the pound at the food co-op, bulk by the pound from the pricey health food store, 50# sack from the co-op, all sizes from wild bird stores, wild bird seed mixes which are mostly millet, and a specialty parakeet blend which was also mostly millet (pricey).

So, If there is a hulled and unhulled millet, I've never run across one that doesn't work. Are there any other sources of millet?


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1214409 - 01/13/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Millet for human consumption is hulled.

Millet for birds is un-hulled(=with the hull still on)


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InvisibleCheeba
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Registered: 09/23/02
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Anno]
    #1216604 - 01/14/03 06:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This was the write-up from 6T.... I use this tek...works splendidly!!  :wink:
WBS Tek (Wild Bird Seed) Bulk Spawn Preparation Method.

WBS consists primarily of white millet. It is often a combination of white, red millet & milo, with a small percentage of sunflower seeds and sometimes tiny amounts of crushed corn. Some expensive brands are coated with a fungicide. For use as spawn material, treated WBS is not advisable.

You can find untreated WBS in 5 -10 & 20 pound bags, at low prices at most large chain grocery stores, or chain type pet supply stores. For instance, PetsMart has 40 pound bags for around $9.

Simply place whatever quantity you intend to use in a plastic pot, tub or bucket. Bear in mind, dry seed will expand about 20 to 25% - after it absorbs its capacity of water. Add tap water & soak the seed overnight. A 8 to 12 hour soak is fine. Seed soaked longer will begin to ferment. But, is still usable after soaking 24 to 36 hours.

There is no need to remove any floating husks, or sunflower seeds. These add lignin (a good thing) & do not harbor any more possible contams than does the millet. It is all going to get thoroughly sterilized - anyway.

Once soaked, simply rinse the seed very thoroughly in a colander, or strainer. Then allow it to drain - WELL. As in 30 or more minutes. If it is drips - one drop. It is not drained - WELL.

Load pint or quart jars ? full, apply internal filter disk, material, polyfil or whatever method you use allow gas exchange through a ? or 3/8 inch hole in the lid. Screw lid on tight & back it off ? turn. Place a double layer of paper coffee filters over the lid & jar top, held down by a thick rubber band. Place the jars in the PC.

PC at 15 pounds for a full 60 minutes. 90 minutes is better, if you have the time. Allow the PC pressure to drop to zero & let it cool a bit. Open while still hot & remove jars. The paper coffee filters will dry almost instantly, when the PC is opened. Tighten lids (if necessary), shake jars to insure there are no clumps of seed inside. Place jars inside the oven on a rack, to cool, overnight. External coffee filters simply add another layer of protection to the jars content.

Once cooled to room temperature, store in a clean cardboard box - until used. Using them sooner than later is preferable. Note: This method was done in an All American PC. Some brands with a weighted pressure system require more internal water & it may be advisable to also cover the coffee filters with tin foil while PC'ing, so no excess boiling water gains entry into the jars. Simply remove the tinfoil when you remove the jars from the PC.

 


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Carpe Diem <*))))><
Theres one sweet whirld out there!!
Now remember, you are unique! Just like everybody else!


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Anno]
    #1217047 - 01/14/03 08:51 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

wow, you learn something new everyday. Anno, did you ever notice a difference? Anybody else have an opinion? Apparently I used hulled and unhulled millet. Not knowing that I was using different things, I never paid attention to what type I was using when I would have problems.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Cheeba]
    #1217054 - 01/14/03 08:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Just want to add to 6ts post that this is a great method for preparing grain for bags. Just increase PC time. for a big pc full of the largest bags they make, 3 or 4 hrs isn't overkill. For just a bag or two of the smaller bags (sporeworks bags with the injector site for example) 1.5 to 2 hrs is sufficient.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1219241 - 01/14/03 09:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Mycofile: 'IMHO, don't buy into the potency hype. My experience over years of cultivating and tripping is that potency is way to general for damn near anybody who is going to be posting on these boards to judge accurately. Not to mention how many different variables are at play other than substrate.'
That is close to patronising. Since you should know that the alkaloids in Psilocybes are derived by the mycelia converting L-tryptophan and tryptophan found in the substrate into psilocybin and psilocin substrate is by FAR the most important factor in potency as Gartz's studies have already indicated. Bigwood and Beug found a difference in potency of cubensis between flushes, Stivje and DeMeijer found significant differences in potency between maxima of cubensis spore races, but none more significant that Gartz's differences from precursors study. So the precursor level in substrate has been proven to be indicative of potency.
I too have plenty of experience and I dont suggest that millet provides more potent cubensis than BRF, im TELLING YOU THAT IT DOES! :smile:


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OfflineNumba9
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1219599 - 01/15/03 02:51 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The Dethhead`s tek is the easiest..... 2/3 cup seed.... 1/3 cup water.... I don`t even soak the millet... just p.c for 1 hour.... But here`s a little trick.... I P.C. for 15 minutes... release the pressure with a large spoon...lifting the valve.. pull jars out with a pot holder and shake and tap the bottom of jars....Then back in the P.C. for and hour. This assures grains are not one solid wet mass.. nice and airy. A pinch of agricultural gypsum from your local nursery in each jar will help with clumping too.


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Remember..what the Door Mouse said..."Feed your Head".......... Jefferson Airplane


Edited by Numba9 (01/15/03 02:51 AM)


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1225347 - 01/17/03 05:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

STrange, I thought I posted this several days ago. anyway, it went something like:

I certainly didn't intend to come across as patronising. I just think that the average home cultivator isn't equipped to measure the potency changes in any meaningful way. Regardless of the studies you mention, the home cultivator is judging potency via bio-assays. These tests have too many impossible to control variables to allow them to even be considered as tests of potency.

Also, I didn't knock millet, especially millet vs. BRF. But I didn't go from BRF to millet, I went from rye and wheat to millet. No noticable difference in potency, but again, only verified through bioassays. When comparing BRF to any grain, the variable that a typical home cultivator isn't going to account for isn't precurser levels in either substrate, but amount of nutrition of all kinds available to fungi. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept that any verm mixed into a substrate (as all BRF mixes are) reduces the total amount of nutrition available. A 1/2 pt PF jar has about a 1/5 or less of the amount of food as a 1/2 pt of any grain. As a starving culture certainly isn't going to produce as many actives as a thriving one is, comparisons of BRF to any grain are skewed in the first place. Comparisons need to be based on dry weight of nutritious substrate, not volume. Following a similar vein, due to it's size and shape, ime millet tends to be heavier per unit of volume than other grains. 1# of millet vs 1# of wheat would be a better comparison than 1qt of millet vs 1qt of wheat. Even at that, making the comparison based on a bio-assay is suspect unless you go through the trouble of doing double blind studies on your friends.

Now, while your fruits may seem more potent when using millet instead of BRF, I think that there are too many variables involved to say specificaly that it is due to the precursers in millet. I also think that for many users, simply telling them that the fruits were grown in a way to make them more potent will provide similar results.

I don't knock the work of the true scientists involved in determining potency variables, and I don't knock the attempt to incorporate their work into home practices. I just think that anybody using a particular substrate for the sole reason of increasing potency has either been hyped or is hyping themselves. Use grain because it's a more nutritious, higher producing substrate. IMO, none of the popular grains produces a noticable affect on potency once all other variables are accounted for as much as they can be in the home environment.

Now, some people approach things like this from the point of view of maximizing every possible variable, regardless of if the effect is noticable or not. The theory being that if you optimize enough difficult to notice variables then an effect is noticable. I completely agree with this opinion as long as people recognize that they may or may not see significant differences.

Again, I apologize for coming across as patronising. I just don't want anybody to get their hopes up for astonishing increases in potency, or for them to attribute any noticed increase to factors which may not really be at play.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1227098 - 01/17/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Again there are assumptions being made about the quantity of nutrients in a substrate mix. I will give anyone five prints if they grow out an isolate of the same cubensis on 250mls of brown rice whole, 250mls of ryegrain, 250mls of wheat straw and 250mls of millet and if they do not find through bioassay alone that their cubensis is more potent there is something wrong.
I have used all of the above and ground them personally and mixed with verm at the same ratios PF style and ive still noticed a considerable difference. Same quantities, same isolate different alkaloid levels and ive done so many times.
You are underestimating the variability of cubensis itself - bigwood and B. found variations in cubensis of psilocin contents of around .4% which is huge.


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OfflineStarspawn
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1227765 - 01/17/03 10:12 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Will spawned dung always make stronger fruits then cased grains? It seems to me that grains alone never grow better.I know spawning takes longer but i think of it like any of the other steps.What do you think?


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InvisibleSixTango
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Starspawn]
    #1227870 - 01/17/03 11:57 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

The more nutes a substrate contains, the bigger the shrooms -- generaly (under optimal conditions).

Pasrurized dung - dung/straw combo & compost (deep substrates) have given me many stout shrooms. Some well over 125 grams & in thick flushes.

Substrates that contain enhanced nutes & precursor items seem to give stronger / longer highs. I can only say "seem", as that was my experiance (as well as those who tripped with me).
6T :wink: 


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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InvisibleSixTango
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1227872 - 01/18/03 12:00 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Another example 6T  :tongue: 


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1229106 - 01/18/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I agree


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1229247 - 01/18/03 04:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

nice pics, Tango
tai strain ?
damn buddas know how to gro mushies :grin:
i jus know im gonna get flamed for this  :crazy: 


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Explorer 8,366 30 05/22/01 11:10 AM
by gray1
* Mushrooms as substrate? Anonymous 1,463 13 01/23/03 04:37 AM
by MAIA
* Re: Ayahuasca Substrate
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 15,911 52 10/01/00 12:28 PM
by Anonymous
* tryptamine content in different substrates Auditory Misperception 1,827 7 11/13/02 11:12 AM
by Dogomush
* Putting HBWR seeds in the substrate. theshiftingwalls 2,325 18 09/07/03 01:35 AM
by IdLeMiND
* DPT + substrate
( 1 2 all )
skullfarmer1979 3,042 23 03/31/05 07:27 PM
by hjalmar

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