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Anonymous

Vendor Conspiracy
    #412437 - 10/03/01 02:01 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

All Vendors are misrepresenting products!!!
Spores are not strains, cultures are.
It is my belief that most of the pictures shown of P. cubensis are actually Stropharia semiglobata. And all the bluing reactions are just manipulated photos. LOL
When a Vendor shows you a picture of P. tampanensis sclerotia growing in a jar. Do you assume when you order spores your jars are gonna look like those?
Do you assume because a mushroom was found growing on a pink buffalo's shit, versus a regular buffalo or cow shit, it is gonna somehow be different in it's fruiting characteristics, even though they are found in the same area. Within the print itself from a single substrate source, there will be considerable variability in fruiting characteristcs. When you multispore innoculate, there will be even more variability. what really seperates spore races is the outward appereance of the fruits themselves, not the quantity of fruits. Quantity will be variable within a single print from a single mushroom from a single sporerace. I think alot of people read to much into that. But hey, I guess he should have just said he had no picture for the KS-PB. he gets an A for creativity, but the sluth who discovered it gets an A++++.
I think all the vendors are preying on ignorance in one way or another, so I don't single any of them out alone. The only real misrepresentation would be to Knowingly sell one sporerace as another. I.E a PF as a GT. Other than that it seems to be a anything goes philosophy, so singling out MCMAN is rediculous. At least on the point of misrepresentation!!!!
The threat is an entirely different matter, as LANA so eloquently, and tastefully put it.
Peace Teonan



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OfflineTrippinRhino
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: ]
    #412548 - 10/03/01 03:54 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed Teonan you are correct on the issue of spore races etc. I think that the nomencalture is really just a misnomer born out of ease and perhaps a bit of ignorance. When I was first introduced to mushroom cultivation through The Shroomery, and The Hawk's Eye (it has been wonderful by the way!) I adopted the same use of the word "strain". It has always seemed to me that the proper order of nomenclature should be as such: genus, species, sub-species, strain, substrain. Genus and species are of course easy. Psilocybe Cubensis (or Pan. Cyans. etc.) A sub-species would be a spore race such as Psilocybe Cubensis found indigenous to Thailand, found growing on pink buffalo shit....lol. A sub-species, due to the nature of it's past generations, under similar climatic conditions and food has developed general growth characteristics. Each spore from the sub-species would be a strain and going even further, each mass of mycelium from the isolation of this strain would be a substrain. Theoretically, two sub-species like EQs and Cams grown under the same conditions side by side for enough generations would begin to loose noticable differnces. I can't really say I blame the Vendors for this, although the question is much like the chicken or the egg thing. Does everyone refer to spore races as strains because of the vendors or do the vendors refer because that is how the masses understand? I dunno folks. As for me, I am greatful that a vendor led me to the shroomery where I have found a hobby I am pasionate about. If I only had more time...

Getting back to what you said Teonan. I agree, ALL VENDORS are misrepresenting products. Those who have taken the time to educate themselves as you have and those who have been growing long enough surely have come to this realization. To those just getting started, it is a matter of little importance to the newbie. He or she will learn later if they stick with it.

Peace Y'all!

For Premium prints and cultivation info check out www.thehawkseye.com a supporter of the free spore ring...


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InvisibleGrenade01
Registered: 09/26/01
Posts: 378
Loc: USA
Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: TrippinRhino]
    #414163 - 10/04/01 10:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Cool Thread
Very interesting
never woulda known

.. I was ignorant... But I sure didnt feel blissful??



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Invisiblejanuary77
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Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 125
Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: ]
    #414310 - 10/05/01 12:57 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

or if we just gave them catchy names, "Oober Goober".,"LaLa Lei Lei", :"yamalama ding ding", "Holy Shit whathehell was that..HSWTHWT:"
Better Yet each Spore supplier GOES CORPORATE, with LOGO NAMES!!!!no that would suck
disreguard, as you were.

eat your birdseed cakes!!!


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America is not innocent


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: ]
    #414313 - 10/05/01 01:01 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Where do I get this magical mushroom spores growed from pink buffalo shit? Maybe they're in light red that truck!

*runs and tips over truck, spilling packages of ice cream*



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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: TrippinRhino]
    #414389 - 10/05/01 02:19 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Obviously you guys haven't picked up any books in a while and I guess I need to send you back to school. I wonder how many ppl read this thread of misrepresentantion and now think us spore suppliers are misrepresenting customers. Thanks guys, its post like this that make me want to come out of retirement :smile:

Well I'm going to let you guys in on a little secret. Pay close attention you dont want to miss this one.
Even the great mushroom guru Paul Stamets uses the word strains in 2 different uses of the word. One as in the way we all do, strains of cubensis referring to orgins, as you guys are saying we are misrepresenting ppl,  and 2nd in the use of an "isolated strain" as in advanced culture techniques.  He uses the word strain in 2 different ways in all of his books and his lectures. If you like I can pull out many many places in the Guru's books where he uses strains in the sense we all use it. Its a common term used in cultivation of the mycology world by all the big dogs. If you guys would pick up a book once in a while you would know this je je je :wink:

Just for a real fast reference since I have Paul Stamets Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World right in front of me.
I really hate typing from books but here is a paraprhase. Page 110 for those of you with this book. He is speaking of cubensis.

"Most of the spores were brought back by travelers to Mexico, Guatemala, Ecuador, Colombia, And the Amazon in the mid seventies. Hence, strains carried the names of their orgins, such as Amazonian, Palenque, Matias Romero, and Ecuadorian. These strains were widely distributed throughout the world, and in time had a ripple effect that increased their availability, and hence their popularity. Psilocybe subcubensis Guzman is virtually identical, differeing only in the smaller size of its spores, which are (size indicated) and slightly smaller pleurocystidia. Psilocybe subcubensis has been collected throughout much of the sub tropical Mexico, Colombia, Bolivai, Ecuador, Honduras ,El Salvador, Venezuela, and Australia. Probably more widely distrubuted.
End paraphrase.

In case you guys missed it, a subcubensis is only defined by smaller spore size and a smaller pleurocystidia.

Yes, we all use it as a common phrase as a strain of cubensis from a certain country or orgin. The word spore race could be accepted as well, although not used in the mycology world. That is something PF started on his website a year ago. But strain is indeed correct. PF always loves giving a lack of respect for Stamets writings so it does not surprise me he attemped this same arguement and gave it his own name, spore race, a year ago. And some ppl of OMC have adopted it. Although what you have adopted is PF's phrase, not what is used in the mycology world.

Their are indeed cubensis and subcubensis. We have not had all of our strains tested for which ones are subcubensis recently. About a year and 1/2 ago someone did test many of ours strains and the ecuador strain was the only one to be a subcubensis. Yet check it out, its one of the largest growing strains we carry. So subcubensis certainly is by no means insufficiant to cubensis.

Now as for all the strains from Thailand. We have 7 different ones. Only 4 of them showed worthy enough for us to carry. All of the thailand strains show different growth characteristics from each other. Yet when we grow out the thialand koh samui over and over from its own spores on compost, it gives us the same looking mushrooms and same growth characteristics time and time again. The only one that is acting like a shape shifter of the 4 is the pink buffalo. All 4 strains we carry do come from the island of Koh Samui in Thailand. All of them picked from different parts of the island in areas that were prevelant in mushrooms. Recently McMan started a rumor the pink buffalo and the koh samui were one in the same. They are not. The original koh samui was brought back 2 summers ago from a different part of the island. The pink buffalo was collected last summer. Their were only 2 original prints of this and we got one. We have been slowly developing it and recently released it. Perhaps its shape shifting is from its lack of maturity. I'll try and get those pics of all the different generations posted soon.

One of the 4 has a very unique alkaoloid in it that will be published in scientific journals, hopefully soon, but the other 3 do not carry this alkaloid. I'm sworn to secrecy on this one so dont ask. Which also goes to show that just because they came from the same island they are not the same strains.
Another factor to the different strains is the different highs. They are just like different marijuana strains in mine and many opinions. Read the descriptions on my website for my personal views on them. Gartz even pointed this out in his writings that many unknown alkaloids have been discovered not only in different species, but different strains of the same species. These alkaloids are still unknown as to how they react on our bodies and minds when ingested and mixed with psilocybin and psilocin. Thus in my opinion, and I have stood by this for years. Its these different alkaloids within different strains that cause the different highs. Personally its one of the things that have kept me going so long by growing different strains from different countries is the different highs. We can only indulge in their beauty and arua for so long, but when you get right down to it its the different high and vibe that keeps us coming back for more :smile:

So do we have a better understanding now?

-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores
www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #414411 - 10/05/01 02:54 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ok one more just for fun. Check out Stamets Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms 3rd edition. Page 330.
Talking of psilocybe cyanescens....Very bottom in BOLD print : AVAILABLE STRAINS: Strains are easy to obtain by
joining a mycological society where mushrooms of this group are quietly exhibited during fall forays.
End Quote:
The 4th edition will also be printed:
AVAILABLE STRAINS: Strains are easy to obtain by visiting www.thehawkseye.com
End Quote:

-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores
www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #414422 - 10/05/01 03:08 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

When i was in Ko samui they had heaps of different types of cubies from different areas of the island - lots of little white ones that i have yet to see available as a domesticated shroomie...As for alkaloids, ive been talking to a guy who is interested in aeruginocine and its prevelence in Australian psilocybes...



www.shaman-australis.com/shroom/


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OfflineRegularPenguin
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Registered: 10/05/01
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #414423 - 10/05/01 03:11 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hey ryche i love your web site, but i really wish you'd update the sections with less info in them, Tazzies, GT etc...

The tazzies have my favorite akaloids

I am not a puppet


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Melting penguin must die


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #414425 - 10/05/01 03:15 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The little white ones were probably copelandia's/panaeolus, very common in Thailand. The panaeolus are my absolut favorite vibe of all the different species and strains I have tried :smile:
I'm not familiar with aeruginocine, but then again we dont study these alkaloids either, that is some pretty deep science/mycology.

-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores
www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #414426 - 10/05/01 03:16 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

When talking about Thailand, i believe that many vendors have been a little misleading... For a start those who participate in the 'fullmoon' party are 90% western tourist and most gobble Es now day and very few eat the mushies that used to be being sold with prevelance on Ko Pha Ngan (neighbouring Ko Samui) And they are not called 'mushroom parties'...
The availablility of psilocybes for purchase in Ko Samui/Ko Pha Ngan is a direct response to demand from western tourists and no native thais from Ko Samui that i spoke to in my lengthy stay there had ever eaten one...
Also, the international hospital (Bandon) often gets shite loads of westerners tripping out of their heads in LSD and amphetamine rather than the rare case of someone eating a mushie omlet and losing the plot... Amphetamine is the drug of choice on those islands - its everywhere..,.



www.shaman-australis.com/shroom/


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #414428 - 10/05/01 03:21 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

mmm..could have been pans - this was before i had much to do with mushies...
I agree that your Ryche's site rocks - how about an info page on those Pink Buff???
<img src="https://proxy.mind-media.com/proxy.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fshroomery.org%2Fwwwthreads%2Ffiles%2F67741-hindu4.JPG">

www.shaman-australis.com/shroom/

Edited by bluemeanie on 10/05/01 02:23 AM.



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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #414437 - 10/05/01 03:36 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I agree, the full moon festival is for foreigners now. But originally started by the locals. You'll love this one, most ppl of thialand dont even eat many mushrooms. Most of the natives have no clue about them. Only those that cater to foreigners.
As for most vendors, I'm the only one that has info on my site mentioning the full moon festival unless others have added that now as well.

BTW the name pink buffalo is attribute to entheomycologist John Allen. He is the man that has been traveling this part of the world for so long and bringing back many of these great strains, in raw form. We grow them out and share them with the world. He gave it the name Pink Buffalo name so it stands in his honor.



-Peace-
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores
www.thehawkseye.com/dbkits/dbkits.html
Dung Brothers Premium Mushroom Compost Kits


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com


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Invisible40oz
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: ]
    #414580 - 10/05/01 08:03 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

this is the most interesting post by far....

~fortyounces2freedom~ & ~disconnectedhaze~

get all your supplies AND spores at a discount price!!! CLICK HERE!!!


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:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."


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OfflineTrippinRhino
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: 40oz]
    #414930 - 10/05/01 04:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ryche,
indeed you always come through with the proper means of conveying information. True indeed about the 2 uses of the word "strain". I am reading "The Mushroom Cultivator" by Stamets and Chilton and yes, "strain" is clearly used in the context you mentioned. I believe the thread started from a statement in a thread that McMan (P.o.S.) was misrepresenting "strain". Teonan stated that all vendors do it. I agreed but stated that vendors use the word that has been adopted by the people. In fact the word "strain" has been adopted by the mycology world as you have told us. I Don't feel like this thread was started to bash any vendors although only Teonan has the answer to that. For Myself, I obviously was not bashing. I advocate T.H.E. with every post. Your site led me to cultivation--I thank you and my friends certainly thank you! As for the laughter regarding the Pink Buffalo, It is because they are funky lookin' critters not because MJ found some nice shroomies growing there. I know you and the other vendors fight a never ending battle af flames here. But "simmuh down now". No one here was attacking. I assumed the title of Teonans thread was a joke...Teonan?

For Premium prints and cultivation info check out www.thehawkseye.com a supporter of the free spore ring...


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Anonymous

Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #415213 - 10/05/01 10:44 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Strains are available from mushroom clubs and societies in the form of CULTURES. The original post was a joke, kinda.
But since you have takin the time to try and correct me, enjoy yourself. A strain is an individual Dikaryon. Spores produce many strains, hence the concept of SPORE RACE. This simple correction, could and would clear up alot of confusion. Yes the GURU uses two definitions of the word strain, and I understand this. But to imply that a spore print is a strain, is very misleading. A spore print has countless strains within it, hence the confusion. Why not call it a spore race, denoting the differentness of the race, but the commonality of the strains. By the way, Stametes sells strains(cultures) and some of them took a long time to develope, I would hate to order one of these strains and recieve a SPORE PRINT. For all practical purposes you can call it whatever you want. But when I germinate spores from one of your STRAINS, all the different combinations I get ain't all gonna look or act like the Strain pictured. Hence the term SPORE RACE. P. cubensis spore race Amazonia strain # 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,..............
Take it or leave it!!!!
Ryche does the KS-PB originate from the Pink Buffalo shit or not? I am still confused as to it's origin. I am sure there are countless spore races on the Island, all developing in there own little niche. I am not doubting it's uniqueness, I just want to know where it originated from. I don't know where I picked up the idea that it came from the dung of the PINK BUFFALO. I thought I read it somewhere on this site or at a Vendor site.
And yes in my mind calling spores a Strain is very misleading. Now if you added a S to the end, Strains, i.e Amazonian strains, well that would not be so misleading.
Pink Buffalo strains
Lipi Ya strains
Golden Teacher Strains
You get the idea!!!!!
Again this was all started as a joke, with all the finger pointing going on in recent days.
But none the less the concept is a strong one!!!!!! And all the quotes in the world will not change the simple fact, that you and all Vendors selling prints are selling Spore races, not strains. Any company selling Cultures of developed strains will tell you that.



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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Vendor Conspiracy [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #415347 - 10/06/01 01:45 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I was refering to McMan's site as well - the one with the mycopod R2D2 looking thing...:-) I read somewhere that the pink buff was found in pink buffalo shit too...im not sure where i got that - Mjshroomer recentally posted that he has found two more Ko Samui strains... There is an island over the other side of the penisula named Ko Sukhon, and my girlfriend and i found cubies (well, large blue-stainers anyway:-)) in some unidentified dung... Just wish i had been interested enough to get a print or something...:-(



www.shaman-australis.com/shroom/


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