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OfflineMobius_Strip
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TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends
    #4021677 - 04/06/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I thought of something regarding humidity and I wanted to see if this would work. In a combination TIT and PMP, instead of using geolite/pearlite or humidifier for humidity in a this setup. Would it be possible to:

1. poke drain holes in the top tub, many small ones.
2. Elevate the mushroom pans from the floor of the top tub
3. have a water pump in the bottom tub pumping the water into the top tub (floor) where it drains back into the bottom tub.

This way there is no standing water and it would act as a co2 sink also drawing in oxygen from any tiny holes or polyfill/tyvek covered holes in the tub. Since CO2 sinks to the floor it seems that it would be carried out with the water. If I used a clear tub I could even put aqaurim plants in the bottom tub to absorb CO2 before the water is returned to the top tub. Also, to complicate issues, put an activated carbon filter in the water line to help further reduce impurities.

No humidifier, no standing water, no tubes sticking out, more easily stealthed, good water/oxygen exchange, no air pump.

Here's a diagram


Anyway, How does the tyvek thing work? Will it allow for oxygen exchange/CO2 in a TIT without allowing humidity to escape? Oxygen is a gas right?

Any Ideas?


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


Edited by Mobius_Strip (04/06/05 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleRoadkill
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4021692 - 04/06/05 03:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

are you talking about a (pmp) poor man pod?

a TIT is an incubator.


--------------------
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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineHambo
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Roadkill]
    #4021720 - 04/06/05 03:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I beleive its a cross between the 2..?

I've given up using anything meself, just put jars somewhere warm n dark.. then case and somewhere not quite as warm with a transparent bag over or something.. I found this to work better than the PMP type thing I was using before. The sods grow whatever I put em in.  :shrug:


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OfflineSoK
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Hambo]
    #4021844 - 04/06/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

yeah i hate that prob. :smile:


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: SoK]
    #4021958 - 04/06/05 04:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You need a TIT...no humidity, no air exchange, no light, nothing but sealed jars or bags of substrate with a breathable patch of some sort (be it tyvek or polyfil) on each one and 80-84 degrees.

Then next to that..you need a fruiting chamber...high humidity, lots of fresh air exchange (as opposed to "gas exchange" which is the release of excess gasses), light and you want it room temp 70-77 degrees, which generally means no heat. You can build a PMP which automates air exchange and humidity within your fruiting chamber..but this is not your TIT.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4022181 - 04/06/05 05:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. I was talking about the combination TIT and PMP. Using it as both all in one incubator and fruiting chamber. No water flow when incubating, heater on (if needed). Turn on the water pump when fruiting for oxygen/CO2 exchange etc... Maybe I should draw a diagram.



So, does this design incorporate
1. Humidity: Controlled humidity by adjusting flow valve on pump
2. Oxygen/CO2 exchange
3. Reduced contams from standing water (no geolite/pearlite)
4. Controlled temp with heater


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


Edited by Mobius_Strip (04/06/05 05:58 PM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4022283 - 04/06/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Theres still water, and in fact more of it and standing more. TITs create INTENSE growth in the water..the water water is a PERFECT harbor for contams. With perlite/geolite though, the water evaporates and there isnt much to begin with, and the water level should be below the top of the geolite which will help keep contams from forming. With perlite, there shouldnt be much standing water at all, the more water you have the more it reduces humidity.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineCrunk_Juice
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4023239 - 04/06/05 09:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So why not put saturated perlite in the bottom tub, holes in the top tub. Place the heater under the saturated perlite (under the tub) turn the heater on and the water will evap into the growing chamber. Then have a drip shield that allows the water to return to the perlite. Much to the same effect as having a humidifier but without the humidifier. Worst case would be if the humidity gets too low you mist the shit out of it...
Or just get a humidifier :-P


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OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4023260 - 04/06/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How is it "standing water" when the pump is continually circulating and aerating the water? Bacteria, etc, doesn't breed as easily in circulating/aerated water. Also, as it's circulating from the base tub up to the top tub and down again it's also evaporating into the chamber. It seems to me that with the pearlite/geolite setup the water is always standing because it never moves. It might be "contained" in the pores of the pearlite/geolite but it's still standing and prone to stagnancy. I noticed this when I was growing pf cakes/oysters on pearlite. How does geolite prevent contamination when the water is not circulating at all?


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


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Offlinegoofy98
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4023296 - 04/06/05 09:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

hes gotta point...

although i dont like the idea. :faded:


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: goofy98]
    #4023712 - 04/06/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

How does geolite prevent contamination when the water is not circulating at all?

You arent supposed to use geolite without airwands under it. If you arent using air wands with an airpump under it, you should be using perlite..which as I said, shouldnt have standing water really.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4024045 - 04/07/05 12:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

So, somehow, water that flows and aerates continuously (not standing) is more prone to contaminants than geolite and an air wand? This doesn't make sense. Isn't it possible that the geolite is capable of harboring bacteria and other contams. Geolite doesn't have any contam killing properties does it? In the same way that water can fill the holes in geolite so can contaminants. Not to mention, the air wand can't aerate every pore and every corner of the tub with geolite obstructing the flow. It makes more sense to me to get rid of the variable (geolite/pearlite) and have unobstructed flowing/aerated water. That way there is no porous solid to harbor contamination. You can always add peroxide and a small bit of bleach/peroxide/soda lime to the water. Soda lime would act to absorb CO2 as well. If you want more aeration just add a bubble wand. Scuba divers and anesthesiologists use soda ash to scrub CO2 through rebreathers. This concept could be applied to mushroom terrariums as well, no? Or, for a more organic experience it seems plausible to add water plants to the bottom basin to absorb CO2 instead of chemicals. The CO2 could be scrubbed with plants or filter material such as an in line activated charcoal filter. The mushrooms would be suspended above water so the CO2 would sink to the bottom of the tub. Add a couple tyvek covered holes (assuming tyvek allows the passage of O2 and not contams) in the lid and you have convection of CO2 through the bottom of the top tub and into the second where it collects (As long as there is room left above the water line that is). The CO2 would be scrubbed using the inline charcoal filter or by other means... This wouldn be the controlled equivelent of mushrooms growing on the forest floor next to a stream bed.


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4024063 - 04/07/05 12:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Feel free to try it...I'm just telling you what months of ranning a TIT did...contams in the water..even with bleach (which isnt a good idea to do with the fruiting chamber, and peroxide breaks down in light in hours or days).

In a geolite chamber there is much less water, and it and the peroxide is hidden fromt he light under the geolite. In the original thing I didnt really see the pump...but your adding another tub between it...I've tried many different setups..dozens..and grown many a shroom...I'm just telling you that I see this, being much more of a problem overall...and a hassle, then a simple PMP.

Again though, this is just me...your obviously quite adament about this (most people are when they get an idea) so go for it..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4024135 - 04/07/05 01:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Just trying to see your logic man. I trust you when you say you're experienced in this way. I'm just trying to get an educated opinion. So, you're saying that you've tried using a water pump to keep water flowing? I see you're point with standing water, that's why I don't include standing water in my design. I just don't understand why geolite would be so special in the sense that it reduces contams when combined with an air wand. What's the theory behind it. I'm trying to understand how these things work. I'm assuming it's that the bubble wand constantly agitates the water so that contams do not grow. How is this different from constantly agitating/flowing water? The water is still in the dark because the grow pans/casings obscure the light from the bottom of the tub. The only thing I can see growing in flowing water is algae and algae would actually absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen. I'm talking about the same way a fish tank works. If it really is a bad idea I won't do it but so far noone has given me a technical explanation for why it won't work.


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


Edited by Mobius_Strip (04/07/05 01:12 AM)


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4024188 - 04/07/05 01:26 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

>Just trying to see your logic man.

I'm sorry, theres no specific logic to it..thats what I'm trying to explain..its just that I know what mushrooms like...I can look at that, and I just feel they wouldnt like it any better then a PMP...if anything worse...and it seems like more hassle to me. Its tough to explain...its just little things after you do them for a while..then you start doing something else...you now understand why you dont do what you did to begin with...even though you may not be able to explain it.

I think I just relized what my biggest problem is...I'm a firm believer in KISS...this seems more complicated then needed.

Yes with water pumps in them, stuff still formed..the heater in the water is an incredible aid in mold colonization, that a PMP doesnt have.



Which is why I removed them and just let the dehydrator heat the whole closet...KISS...



>I just don't understand why geolite would be so special in the sense that it reduces contams when combined with an air wand. What's the theory behind it.

Geolite doesnt reduce contams...its just that the small cool room temp amount of water and h202 suffices to keep it out. In a TNT, there are a few inches of solid water going across, it would take weeks upon weeks to fully evaporate all that water...in a geolite tub, there is much less water so it evaps quicker and fresh water replaces it more. As I said, its not much of a theory...I'm just telling you what I know from running a PMP and running TITs. PMP had not a single contam in the water...TITs did everytime after 4-6 weeks.

Once again, if you want a technical explination, why it wont work...your not gonna get one. Its not that it WONT WORK. I never said that. I just said its not worth the extra time and effort and the things your trying to solve, arent problems to begin with and you have actually solved anything...the point of my posts hasnt been to tell you your idea wont work, its been to tell you that a PMP will be easier on you, and will work just as well...if not better. Maybe not better...but it certainly wont work any worse then your design and would seem to cause more problems just from what I've said. Again IT MAY NOT...thats not the point....IT MAY...why not just go with a PMP that WONT?

Again you seem hell bent on this idea and convincing me...sorry..but its not gonna happen :smile: Its cool if I didnt convince you either though..I dunt know shit anyway :smile:



--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4024532 - 04/07/05 02:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

>"Again you seem hell bent on this idea and convincing me"

Not hell bent on anything. Nor am I trying to convince. I've never really ascribed to the reletivistic way of seeing the world ("It is because I say it is and I am the overseer so you must believe or perish" sort of answer to all questions big and small). Kind of reminds me of religion and governments... Anyway, I trust you know what you're talking about. You have a lot of experience in this realm. I just like to know why and how things work as opposed to blindly swallowing and regurgitating what others say because they say it's so. The only way things get better is when we get a new perspective and facilitate change. The only way we get a new perspective is by questioning... or so it seems to me, from my perspective. Anyway, thanks for entertaining my idea. I always enjoy stimulating conversation and I appreciate your input. Thanks!


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4024565 - 04/07/05 02:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I understand man, I really hate giving you that answer, I'm the same way...I break everything down logically normally. But these are an artform, more than a science. Its not that things are this was because I say they are and you must believe me or anything like that, its just that I can't explain to you why this seems like a complicated way to make art. I gave you plenty of small reasons..certainly easily dismissed by "theory" but its like creating music, some music just doesnt sound good to me..theres no reason or anything that makes it (like say country music) "bad" by definition...

Its still different of course, its a completly different art..but an art none-the-less and logic doesnt always apply to art..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMobius_Strip
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4026272 - 04/07/05 02:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I understand what you mean. If nothing else I understand the nature of art. That's why I think I'm drawn to mushroom cultivation, because it's an art as much as it is a science. It's Alchemy in that sense.

"theres no reason or anything that makes it (like say country music) "bad" by definition..."

Heh,heh,heh, that's something else we both agree on.


--------------------
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate
-Noam Chomsky


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Offlineaustio_ferocious
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: Mobius_Strip]
    #4461258 - 07/27/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Revisiting the revisited can be dangerous... hmmm, will I be shot?
Oxygen kills pathogenic bacteria, thus explaining why oxygenating the water with an air wand would reduce contams. I have thought about using water with stabilized oxygen molecules, available for purchase at my local health food store. It's pricy, but you'd probably only need 15-20 drops per gallon of water used, and it is supposedly very stable, unlike h202. (though I'm not of any specific education on this.) Thoughts? Expert opinionation...ologies? :crazy2:


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InvisibleFreedomFight
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Re: TIT revisited:Tyvek, gas, humidity, other odds and ends [Re: austio_ferocious]
    #4461282 - 07/27/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It looks cool on paper... but are you forgetting that you're gonna want to incubate and fruit at the same time. No one likes to wait for a month or more between the start of one fruiting to the start of the next. If you DO like to wait so long then why even mess with incubation or a pod at all?


--------------------
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