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 Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
 
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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 Myth and Fact 
#3917058 - 03/14/05 04:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Myths are as important as facts when philosophy is discussed. Take the story of Jesus. Was he a real person? It is not important from a religious standpoint and certainly not from a Christian view. The myth reflects the consciousness of man. It's import is in it's meaning...what it can teach...not in it's factual authenticity. If we are discussing history and science facts are the whole of truth, but in the world of religion and philosophy facts are meaningless unless they teach us an essential philosophical truth. In this manner myths are just as important. They tell us where we came from and show us the direction we should go. They are the root core of the spirit of man. They are the dreams of our species.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Very true, I remember learning many a good thing from fables, and they were used to teach numerous accounts of how one should approach situations.
But... they are only good to the extent they are used to teach... and not to preach. IMO anyway.
But many a story told and written, is biased in it's demeanor, and that is what I'm against.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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 Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
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Fact presented as a possible truths, and not the truth as it self.
is 'all' you would ever need.. ..to know..
truth is the presenter :P
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Disclaimer!?
Edited by Gomp (03/14/05 04:52 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Gomp]
#3917454 - 03/14/05 05:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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After a great passage of time recorded history usually fails. This is true of our past here on Earth...it is our myths that endure.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Truth as the story teller, fiction as the story told.
A history got a main character, and some bi-characters.. If we all talked as the main character of our story, ... and let the bi-characters do their own talking, as the main character of their own story's.. well.. im jsut crazy..
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Disclaimer!?
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Gomp]
#3917496 - 03/14/05 07:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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facts begin as myth
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: faslimy]
#3917622 - 03/14/05 07:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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hrmmm? usually i see more myths begining as fact.
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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the circle game.. 
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Disclaimer!?
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: faslimy]
#3917765 - 03/14/05 08:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
faslimy said:
facts begin as myth
So it's a fact that Zeus is real and he is the god of all gods?
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: DNKYD]
#3917780 - 03/14/05 08:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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from a point of view, yes? :P
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Disclaimer!?
Edited by Gomp (03/14/05 08:10 PM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: Gomp]
#3917782 - 03/14/05 08:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gomp said:
the circle game..
would you expect any different? 
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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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I expect of the moment.. (myself)
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faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: DNKYD]
#3917939 - 03/14/05 08:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said:
Quote:
faslimy said:
facts begin as myth
So it's a fact that Zeus is real and he is the god of all gods?
i didn't say all myths become fact, what is fact anyway...
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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It is a matter of historical fact that a man named Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem circa 30 AD. His existence was recorded by several pagan historians. Zeus if a myth, Jesus is a man who walked the earth.
http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Your evidence is religiously tainted information on a ministry web page. The existance of Jesus is NOT historical fact. It is likely that he existed from the abundance of references, but it is not certain. The miracles he supposedly performed fall solidly into the catagory of myth...right alongside Zeus' thunderbolts and the exploits of Thor and Loki. All are just as real...and just as significant. According to the oficial Summerian records, King Gilgamesh ruled for over 800 years...does this mean it is true? This is what historians recorded. They understood that myth outlived history and sought to glorify their civilization. Remember, when discussing history or science verifiable fact IS more important than myth...just not when one approaches religion or philosophy. Confusing religion and history or religion and science is a terrible mistake in logic.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (03/14/05 09:40 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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I tend to agree with you, but that is a Gnostic take on Jesus. It has been absolutely the crux [pun intended] of the problem to discover the historicity of Jesus. The 19th century of theology is perhaps best known for this preoccupation. Medical doctor, and theologian Albert Schweitzer was one of the big names in The Quest for the Historical Jesus (one of his book titles).
Jesus the man became the supernatural carrier of the archetype and myth of Hero or Savior from a Greek point of view. To the early Jewish followers, Jesus was 'annointed' by GOD thereby being a 'son of GOD' by a divine right of spiritual kingship. John, the Greek Jew changed 'annointed' man (Christed, Meshiach, Messiah) to becoming 'GOD clothed with flesh' - very different and not Jewish at all in conception. That is why John's Gospel (and the Johannine writings) are different from Matthew, Mark and Luke - the Synoptic [same-view] Gospels. John's is the least historically-oriented, most cosmic, most popular for evangelizing, most anti-Jewish, and has colored the distinctively different Synoptics in most peoples' minds. The Synoptics are much more earthly than John, and perhaps more human as well. Fortunately, Thomas and the Nag Hammadi library helps put things in perspective.
Tonight I read that Paul's existence is not questioned, and Paul's entire life was about carrying on the Work of Jesus. It is unlikely that Jesus did not exist as a man. The mythic and archetypal acted in the flesh - a truer notion of Incarnation than the mythology put upon Him.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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I ain't makin this shit up.
Quote:
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
(Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews XVIII, chapter 3, paragraph 3).
http://reluctant-messenger.com/josephusA18.htm
Please see the bibliography from the link in my above post for primary source references for Tacitus, Pliny, and Lucian; I've done enough work for you already.
Just because you're a skeptic doesn't mean you can ignore history, and quite frankly you display your ignorance by accusing me of being illogical without first checking the references I provided.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Fact: Jesus was a man who walked the earth and was crucified by the Romans circa 30 AD
Myth: Jesus was the son of "god"
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Myth and Fact [Re: DNKYD]
#3918621 - 03/14/05 10:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I fail to see how it becomes any more credible when a non-Christian source talks about Jesus than when a Christian source does. None of them had any contact with the man. It seems they're just retelling the same myths the Christians told. All it proves is that Christians existed.
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