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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3509900 -

that's sort of what I'm starting to get at. There is far more to a human than himself.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509928 -

mushmaster said:
if your concerns are actually a problem, then people will see this and will voluntarily act to remedy the situation.


unless a consumeristic society has been crafted where people are incredibly distanced from any human-cost of their consumption, where the vast-majority of the media and popular culture simply ignore human and environmental externalities, where an education system simply doesn't teach children about the negatives as well as the postives of their society, where no alternate economic vision is given the time of day in the media, in educational institutions, or in the government, etc etc etc...

i'm not saying it's not going to eventually happen (i believe it will) - but for the time being, those that profit the most on the way things are also tend to have vast economic, social, political, and institutional power to keep things the way they are.

and i'm certainly not arguing for state-controlled medicine (although i believe if compared, a system of universal health-care like they have in scandinavia is much better for the vast majority of society than this half-assed system currently running in the US - the "lesser of two evils" i guess you could say). I'm just saying that if a bunch of poor people get together and say "we should collectively pay for each others health-costs" that is wonderful. However, they have very little market power. Perhaps this is because the rightful product of their labours has been stolen from them, due to private-property and capital basically owning them? :smile: that's another topic...


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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509938 -

There is far more to a human than himself.

No, I wouldn't say that. A single human is a single human.

A group of humans, however, is more than the sum of its parts. Many intelligent and twisted people have taken advantage of this simple fact throughout history. Take a look at Hitler.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3509985 -

well yes, a single human is a single human
let me rephrase

There is far more to a human than his perception of himself

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3510003 -

"They are negligent because they are not people in groups. People have not existed outside of groups, individual humans have."
For the purposes of my statements, the terms "people" and "individual humans" are interchangeable.

"However, culturally and genetically they have not."
What do you mean "culturally"? Whether you believe in evolution or the bible, at some point there was a genetically new individual - a separate species.

"Do you have any evidence to refute my analogy? Coupled with group actions, this is a valid analogy even if it does not sit well with you."
Can cells within a human body choose to leave a group? Can cells within a human body form a new group after they have established themselves in their first group? Can cells in a human body belong to multiple groups, leaving some to hook up with others, and then return to groups they had former associations with? Can cells in the human body form groups with other like minded cells in a different human body?

"The individuals in a mob get caught up in a behavioural mob-mentality. This would not occur if not for the mob - the individual would not act like a mob."
Not all individuals get caught up in "mob mentalities." Some people choose to exclude themselves from such behavior.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3510039 -

Whether you believe in evolution or the bible, at some point there was a genetically new individual - a separate species.

I don't think that is the way evolution takes place. There is a constant buildup of mutations among a GROUP of individual animals, whith new mutations quickly (on an evolutionary scale) being mixed into the group. If a group remains isolated from other groups for long enough (so that mutations can not mix between the groups), the groups become different species. You can not point to any SINGLE animal and say it is the "first" animal of a new species: the diversification occurs among the group as a whole.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3510094 -

Quote:
if your concerns are actually a problem, then people will see this and will voluntarily act to remedy the situation.


mushmaster, that is one of the most naive things ive ever seen you say. do i really need to list for you the problems in our world that we have not addressed? I thought conservatism championed itself as a realist philosophy. accept the reality that under your system some of the society WILL suffer from lack of help from the society. your statement ignores why we are where we are today politically.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3510146 -

"A group of humans, however, is more than the sum of its parts."
Your going to have to offer an explanation. When we look at groups, societies or cultures, what we are observing is an aggregate of all the individuals involved. This is not to deny behavioral tendencies of the humans in group situations, nor to deny the presence of knowledge and customs transmitted between individuals, nor to deny the existence statistical means - such things are to be expected when observing any aggregate of the species. We should expect animals of the same species to act similarly to each other and so we should expect this to manifest itself when looking at aggregates. We can talk of "emergent properties" but all these properties are rooted in the characteristics and actions of the individuals involved and the human nature.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3510167 -

Don't you get tired of trying to differentiate need and want to people who can't tell the difference.

I say death to every adult that has children in poverty. Take care of the kids and the handicapped. I equate child birth in poverty to murder.

Can't we have a check the box here if you want to pay for the poor and pay the higher tax rate system. :grin:

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3510169 -

We can talk of "emergent properties" but all these properties are rooted in the characteristics and actions of the individuals involved and the human nature.

Yet the emergent phenomenon are not possible without groups of individuals. That's why they are called "emergent" behavior: they are not predictable by looking at individuals in a group. They are a function of the group as a whole.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3510196 -

Morrowind said:
Quote:
when you say that a society owes things to people in that society, what you mean is that people living in a group owe things to other people within that group.


I do not. By virtue of existing in a group, you must bear the burden as well as the benefits. The more benefits, the more burden.


When the benefit is the freedom to act as you choose, the burden is that you must live with the consequences of those actions. To me, the benefit in such a situation is worth the burden.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3510206 -

When we look at groups, societies or cultures, what we are observing is an aggregate of all the individuals involved.

The natural world is full of aggregates that give rise to emergent properties not present in the individual. The fact I can formulate and type this message is a result of these emergent properties. Trillions of individuals ie. cells, are all working together to form an emergent property, conciousness. These cells still retain many of their individual properties. This pattern is present throughout the natural world.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: trendal]
    #3510213 -

trendal said:
a group has no consciousness or will. a group has no rights or responsibilities.

This may be a little off topic...but if this is completely true, how do you explain things such as mass hysteria and "mob mentality"?


That is not a case of the group having a will of its own, but rather of the conformist nature of human beings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3510272 -

You have to admit that there are rational and irrational actions that humans can execute. Conservatism assumes that all are or can be rational - as is not the case.

As to
Quote:
When the benefit is the freedom to act as you choose, the burden is that you must live with the consequences of those actions. To me, the benefit in such a situation is worth the burden.


Not when you join a society. If you expect to get any benefit from society, you will carry your share of the burden so as society is benefited from you.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3510481 -

...groups act and make decisions. A human has conflicting voices in his head, yet will settle on one and act

the seperate conscious entities that are the people within a group are not homologous with conflicting values inside one person's head.

groups do not really act, nor do they make decisions. people within them do.

By virtue of existing in a group, you must bear the burden as well as the benefits. The more benefits, the more burden.

which of society's burdens do welfare recipients bear for the benefits they receive?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3510676 -

groups do not really act, nor do they make decisions. people within them do.

But the fact that the people exist within a group influences their decisions. As I described above, groups of interacting entities can have very different properties then the individual entities.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3511548 -

Morrowind said:
You have to admit that there are rational and irrational actions that humans can execute. Conservatism assumes that all are or can be rational - as is not the case.


It assumes no such thing. It merely assumes that actions, whether rational or irrational, have consequences, and that one must face those consequences.

Quote:
Quote:
When the benefit is the freedom to act as you choose, the burden is that you must live with the consequences of those actions. To me, the benefit in such a situation is worth the burden.


Not when you join a society. If you expect to get any benefit from society, you will carry your share of the burden so as society is benefited from you.


And this is done through the free market. You sell a commodity which others want at a price they are willing to pay, and you get the benefit of making a profit. Simple as that.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3511919 -

the wealthy person is able to pay for the cost of medicine, the poor person is not.

Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that mush. In the real world disease doesn't generally only attack poor people. Abolish socialized health care for the poor and childhood immunisation programs will be pointless so childhood diseases will explode, people will be unable to pay for clean water or sewerage so open sewers will rapidly appear spreading water borne and air-borne diseases.

Your parents might be able to build 10 foot high walls around your house and hire security guards but the moment they set foot in the mall they will be sharing air with poor people and disease will spread.

Unless you are planning on banning all poor people from public places? Is this the "libertarian freedom"? we can look forward to?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3512326 -

the free market does assume rationality, that when parties engage in a free transaction it is beneficial to both of them.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3512563 -

no, if it got so bad, then we'd go and buy unsubsidized treatments and vaccines for everyone in sight :rolleyes:

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