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Offlinefungophiliac
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small scale commercial production questions
    #3480321 - 12/11/04 03:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

hi, i just talked to a manager of a local specialty foods store about producing commercially viable edibles for his market and have a few questions
1) what are a few good species that require relatively similar growth temperatures and humidity levels, as well as an easy to manage gas level.
2) i am planning on converting a few rooms in my house to accomadate the space consuming shelfing for fruiting and spawning. what is the best way to keep a good grow room without growing mold. i thought maybe thick plastic sheeting to keep moisture in without mildew. (plastic wrap the whole room)what are some concerns i should think about(i have a few myself, i just want some outside input)
3) i can grow woodlovers as easy as non woodlover's as the resources for most mushrooms are easily available in my area, what are some of the efficiency rates for some gourmet edibles, as this will help me decide which species are most profitable
4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
6) are there any ways to use portable swampcoolers in the summer without breeding contamination?
7)does anyone have comparitive prices of wholesale edibles

i know this is not all of my questions but its a start : i will raise more i am sure throughout this thread. thanks for your help all. i hope i may outline or receive some outlines for homebased commercial fungus production cheaply.


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3480696 - 12/11/04 06:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

one more question
on the issue of swamp coolers, does anyone know of a good way to filter the air flow coming out of those things?
btw i think i may have narrowed my choices to lion's mane, tarragon oyster, and possibly maitake if i can find a way to do the damn temperature consistency. also does anyone think that dry ice may be a good source of co2?


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3481077 - 12/11/04 11:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Okay man. I don't want to come off a dick, but by your first question I could tell already that you are not ready for such a venture. Why don't you try growing a few different edibles first and then think about such a venture. But just to show I am not trying to be a dick, I will answer your questions.


1) Okay I lied, I'm not going to answer this one. You can research this one on your own. Check out Paul Stamets books on cultivation. The answers are at your finger tips.

2) You will not need to protect your lab from humidity, but you will have to keep it extraordinarily clean. Using cubic rooms for fruiting is not really recommended. It can be hard to control temperature in cubic rooms. Also, you'll need a central drain in the room. My old fruiting room was concrete walled so I wasnt very worried about it moulding. I used a 2" stud wall ontop of that 2-3 layers of 6mil plastic. I had planned to cover the plastic with FRP, but it got too expensive.

3) If you can process wood substrates as fast as your can process dung or straw I want in on your secret. You are doing something different from the rest of us.

4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
The answer is at the click of a mouse: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23599

5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
I've seen a few people have success by placing a few ultrasonic humidifiers at strategic locaitons within the grow room, but placing a humidifier in the HVAC system results in a more uniform environment.

6) Yes, you will need cooling during summer. I have no idea if a swamp cooler would work. But, frequently changing or cleaning anything reduces its risk to contaminate.

7) If you are cultivating in your home you will not be able to survive selling wholesale. Wholesale prices for button mushrooms are about $1/lb and for more fancy types like oysters or shiitakes $3/lb is more common. You need to sell direct to consumer.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3481283 - 12/11/04 01:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People dont buy a lot of lions mane. We sold them 2 markets 4 a while then the fallowing week they would still be there. Oysters grow very very well from bags. Different varieties for different seasons.

Constant air flow is your best friend even if it isnt filtered. good fresh clean air with a fan circulating to get rid of stagnent air pockets.


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3481370 - 12/11/04 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Did you have any success with lions mane at restaurants? I was not growing any, but I had a customer ask for it. Interestingly, he also asked for fresh Paddy Straw mushrooms. Keep in mind, this is around the 42 latitude.


Edited by YidakiMan (12/11/04 01:38 PM)


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3481395 - 12/11/04 01:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

egh just sold all our mushrooms to one supermarket. I would have rather sold them to resturants though. Probably would have made a few more dollars. But the market was nice go in the back. Sign a form go home.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3481734 - 12/11/04 03:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

how much could one pull in from a commercial grow operation? sounds like an interesting and fun operation, is there really a big market for edibles?


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intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: TODAY]
    #3483923 - 12/11/04 11:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

YidakiMan said:
Okay man.  I don't want to come off a dick, but by your first question I could tell already that you are not ready for such a venture.  Why don't you try growing a few different edibles first and then think about such a venture.  But just to show I am not trying to be a dick, I will answer your questions. 



1) Okay I lied, I'm not going to answer this one.  You can research this one on your own.  Check out Paul Stamets books on cultivation.  The answers are at your finger tips.
    >firstly, i have paul stamets' gourmet and medicinal book. i just moved so its inaccesible. i thought maybe someone would be interested in discussing grow room management, sorry if this makes me sound lame. i was just looking for a sounding board besides i ts not like i asked for growth parameters of 10 different mushrooms all the way down to co2levels, or your left nut for a matter of fact. i am not meaning to be a dick or anytihng, i just think you may have the wrong idea of where i stand in relation to the science of mycology.

2) You will not need to protect your lab from humidity, but you will have to keep it extraordinarily clean.  Using cubic rooms for fruiting is not really recommended.  It can be hard to control temperature in cubic rooms.  Also, you'll need a central drain in the room.  My old fruiting room was concrete walled so I wasnt very worried about it moulding.  I used a 2" stud wall ontop of that 2-3 layers of 6mil plastic.  I had planned to cover the plastic with FRP, but it got too expensive. 
    >  i i am trying to work with what i have yo :smile: btw  if youve got a lot of humidity with exposed drywall, wood and other residential materials, they will mildew mmmmk. and i do not own this house so a floor drain is out of the question, however, i understand the need. i will find a way around it.

3) If you can process wood substrates as fast as your can process dung or straw I want in on your secret.  You are doing something different from the rest of us. 
> i didnt say i could process them as fast, i said they were both as easy to obtain.
4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
The answer is at the click of a mouse:  http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23599
thanks :smile:
5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
I've seen a few people have success by placing a few ultrasonic humidifiers at strategic locaitons within the grow room, but placing a humidifier in the HVAC system results in a more uniform environment. 
i didnt ask how to manage the proper air currents, i asked if they were clean enough
6) Yes, you will need cooling during summer.  I have no idea if a swamp cooler would work.  But, frequently changing or cleaning anything reduces its risk to contaminate. 
>firstly ididnt ask if it was necassary, i asked if it could be filtered on its way out :smile: secondly, i am familiar technique, but thanks for the kick in the pants, although i do it myself on a daily basis, its good to know people care.
7) If you are cultivating in your home you will not be able to survive selling wholesale.  Wholesale prices for button mushrooms are about $1/lb and for more fancy types like oysters or shiitakes $3/lb is more common.  You need to sell direct to consumer. [/quote
> why the hell would i sell button mushrooms to a specialty store that stocks over 40 kinds of olive oil?  as for shittakes even, the manager i talked to metioned that japan has a corner on the market however, he prefers local growers and also the larger strains you cannot get from japan. even then i still would not cultivate shitake for a market, thats suicide, obviously.  and btw, as far as markets are concerned, i live in utah with about 8 or 10 ski basins within 3 hours from my house. restaraunts go nuts for fresh mushrooms and i am sure that lion's mane has a market here, as well as many of the less common cultivated mushrooms.  and the market i have is not just your run of the mill grocer.  he is shipping in all manner of wild harvests and selling and close to 20 a pound, i am looking to supply him in the off season.  and this man is connected to many of those restaurants i mentioned in town.  when he owned his own store he was selling 60 to 70 pounds a day of various species so i diont think i will have a problem with the market, in fact finding out what kind of a market i have here is what prompted me to undertake a venture like this. i hope i answered all of your responses. i took me quite a while to type this response and the only thing that you helped with was the link to what can be fruited from the bag, but thanks for trying.


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Offlinejmeuser
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Registered: 11/13/04
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3484428 - 12/12/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hey,

Cheers to you for investigating this opportunity. I've been growing for a few years on a (very) small scale and am also interested in selling to farmers markets, restaurants, and our local food coop in the near future. I spend about $200 a month on food and if I could even grow enough just to cover that expense ($3/pound X 100pounds = $300 and 100pounds/4 weeks/month = 25 pounds/week and 25pounds/1lb (wet weight)per 5lbs substrate = 125 pounds or 25 5lb bags/week) I would be stoked! (Please no agro growers telling me how innacurate these calcs are - I'm just brainstorming w/ limited information) I'm still not ready to embark until I really have a good understanding, skill set and have cruched some numbers with well-defined accuracy. I think that my next mini-project is going to be adding up my costs. In any case, I would be very interested in learning and sharing info with you and any small-scale commercial growers.


--------------------
-Jon

Have:
Pleurotus pulmonarius (Pheonix Oyster)
Letinula edodes (Shitake)
Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi)

Want for trade:
Other edibles . . .


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: TODAY]
    #3485669 - 12/12/04 12:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As much as you would like to pull in I suppose the more time you put in the more you reap.

a 100 pounds weekly is a lot of work for small scale. You would need a couple peoples help to get up too a 100 weekly.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3486004 - 12/12/04 01:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think that is a interesting topic.
Probably the biggest problem is to economically produce enough mushrooms when the prices per pound are so low.
I mean you would have to inoculate/harvest/sterilize a lot of bags per hour in order to make a good profit ?
Another things that puzzles me when I think of commercial production is the sterilization process.
I just cannot imagine how you economically sterilize enough spawn/substrate bags at once without buying one of those very expensive huge autoclaves ...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3486037 - 12/12/04 02:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The thing is you eather make your own. Or you search and search and find an economical yet a couple thousand dollar autoclave. Ebay is a good one and so are industrial supply sellers that buy out old equipment and resale them.

Making your own can be done. But it takes some ballz and some imagination. all I will say is a 50 gallon steal drum. But I dont want to be liable for anyones death. You also need to modify it with a gauge and steam let off.

But for spawn you do need the big autoclave. 20 bag minimum.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3486829 - 12/12/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> all I will say is a 50 gallon steal drum. But I dont want to be liable for anyones death.
Yeah, safety that's the problem.
Do you know it there are some reliable instructions on how to build one out there on the net ?


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487100 - 12/12/04 06:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

never found one. sorry man


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3487375 - 12/12/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

hey man, I said I wasn't trying to be a dick. Do a search man, I was in EXACTLY your position one year ago. You will find my posts that look the same as this one. And you know what I was told? I wasn't ready. Did I listen? No. Should I have.... Well yes. I may have learned a lot but I learned that through making unnessary mistakes. And those mistakes will cost a business its life. If you are just growing for fun and experience those mistakes just mean a little bit leaner stirfry.


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OfflineChromeCrow
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487427 - 12/12/04 08:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ragadinks said:
I just cannot imagine how you economically sterilize enough spawn/substrate bags at once without buying one of those very expensive huge autoclaves ...




well, as I am starting a small scale grow/ & giving mycological lessons, I to am interested in feed back on this thread.

I have two 24(?) qt PC, and I can do 4 medium mycobags of popcorn in each ( they hold almost as much as the large bags as they are taller but narrower), as I over fill them ( about 1-1 1/2 " below the filter patch) they hold about as much as 4 qt jars with shaking space left in them ( the jars I mean), so I do about 32 jars worth more or less, in each PCing.

I have searched for those large bags ( they look to be 6' or better) that I have seen stamets use, and I have seen them on a website called something like " I grow mushrooms"..... Tho I havent found the bags yet, those would be titties and beer. pastuerise a bale of straw using a couple 55 gal drums and propane burner units, and fill the bags, and your good to go. Till I find the bags, and rig up a ghetto bag filler, I wil remain PCing the straw/wood in filter patch bags


Edited by ChromeCrow (12/12/04 08:22 PM)


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InvisiblePeterthinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487531 - 12/12/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Here is an untested dangerous thought.

:jester:
safer than pressurizing a 55 gal drum at least!
nitrogen cylinders are good to 2200 psi or so.
But who can say what they are good to if you go cutting into them!
Crazy?
You may choose only one
Yes...go check into a hospital!
No...it might work!


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Offlinejmeuser
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3487547 - 12/12/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>100 pounds weekly is a lot of work

Sorry for the confusion, I was hoping to produce more or less 100 pounds per month. I agree that 100 pounds per week would be a lot of work!

Cheers,


--------------------
-Jon

Have:
Pleurotus pulmonarius (Pheonix Oyster)
Letinula edodes (Shitake)
Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi)

Want for trade:
Other edibles . . .


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ChromeCrow]
    #3487550 - 12/12/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

About the 55 gallon. Make sure it is food grade or stainless steel. If it is not the paint will come off and it will rust. I pasteurized the straw in a basket in the drum and then lifted and drip dryed then onto a tarp to cool below 80 degrees. I inoculated the load with 2 large spawn bags and packed into plastic ducting by hand. Flip it upside down and hang it 2-4inches above the floor. let it settle and then punch full of holes.

I'd like to turn a drum into a sterilizer. It's easy to pasteurize a lot of bulk substrate, but sterilizing capacity sets me back. So you just weld a pressure gauge and a regulator (a stopcock) on the drum?


Edited by YidakiMan (12/12/04 09:25 PM)


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3489425 - 12/13/04 03:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have found this web page that shows how small scale cultivators in asia do it.
But I am not sure if it is a pasteurization or a proper sterilization.
Although the sterilization at lower temperatures like 100 degrees Celsius just takes more time than at 121 degrees ...

> So you just weld a pressure gauge and a regulator (a stopcock) on the drum?
I would make sure if the drum can cope with the higher pressure - otherwise the whole thing might blow up.
Maye using a keg as they are used for storing beer etc. would work cause they are designed for higher pressure ?

Peterthinks:
I like your idea, but I would not dare to build it myself unless I have seen someone with more knowledge and practical skills testing it out.


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