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booknik
King's Kid

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 13
Loc: In The Stacks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
#3489500 - 12/13/04 02:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you must have more pressure to go beyond pasturize toward sterilize you might consider a good used hot water heater w/ top cut off and fitted w/seal like older pc's. The pop off valve is usually set for 210F with an ultimate pressure of 125psi. Just might do the job. The working pressure is almost 10X more than the usual 15psi. Tempurature would have to be worked out.
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pshawny
Mycobian



Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 1,332
Loc: Shroomery
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
#3489508 - 12/13/04 02:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I sure wouldn't want to be in the same room as that autoclave. That would be alot of metal flying around when it blows up.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
#3494062 - 12/13/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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You got it. You can use hot water heater let offs. But they arnt to reliable. The lowset possible heat helps to regulate. It takes some trial and error. The bags need to stay out of the water. It also needs to cool a whole day. After a while the lids might bow out. but they quickly loose a seal and presure escapes to a safer level. So after a while of use maybe 20 some hours you could expect something like that. But after the seal is lost you can use it like a steam stereliser instead.
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ragadinks
MrBeatle


Registered: 10/20/03
Posts: 1,298
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
#3495408 - 12/14/04 12:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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> you might consider a good used hot water heater w/ top cut off and fitted w/seal like older pc's. That sounds interesting. But I have never seen such a design. Has anyone got a pic ?
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Anno
Experimenter



Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 20 days, 3 hours
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
#3495684 - 12/14/04 02:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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>The pop off valve is usually set for 210F with an ultimate pressure of 125psi.
210?F? This is the temperature water boils at the atmospheric pressure.
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booknik
King's Kid

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 13
Loc: In The Stacks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
#3496341 - 12/14/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok, Ok. I know it is just a bit unconventional. Conventional is what "they" are. The 15psi we seek is no problem the water tank will obviously handle that. The temp. will be the difficulty. If anyone tries it, be sure to use at minimum the standard pop off or two. The pop off cavity, pressure escape route could be obstructed by substrate in a hurry to leave. cannot be too careful!!
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YidakiMan
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
#3496401 - 12/14/04 09:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
booknik said: The 15psi we seek is no problem the water tank will obviously handle that. The temp. will be the difficulty.
All you have to do to raise the temperature of a container of water is to add flame or heat. Simple. But you will not be able to get any thing above 212F unless your container can hold pressure. Pressure is the difficulty, not the temperature. The temperature will come naturally once we have the ability to hold 15PSI. Boiling water at 15PSI = 250F
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Anno
Experimenter



Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 20 days, 3 hours
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
#3502110 - 12/15/04 02:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I absolutely wouldn't recommend using your boiler for this though, they are not made for this and the whole thing could go very wrong.....
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Alkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine


Registered: 11/15/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
#3503723 - 12/15/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Agreed. Maybe this will be put it in perspective....
A small retort (4 ft long X 4.5 ft diameter w/ 1/4 carbon steel rated for operation between 15-30 PSI) is going to be pushing a half a ton (american=2000lbs/ton). This is not including the doors, feet or any other safety hardware that will make this safe to use.
Generally (someone with more experience in pressure containment correct me if I'm wrong please) the main body itself and the doors will have to have a safety factor of at least 5 times the working PSI. So that means if you are going to build your own home autoclave then you should make sure that it can withstand AT LEAST 225 PSI (for the body of the vessel). This is just in case something horrible happens and the safety valves fail. 
I'm just not seeing this as a bright idea. It might seem expensive, but I would say either spring for some more AA sterilizers or get a loan and get a real retort.
Either way good luck.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
#3504476 - 12/15/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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50 gallon steal drums is wear its at!
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Legoulash
Stranger

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 4,347
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Check out scrap yards, Iv seen huge stainless "tubs"(look like a giant oxygen/nitrogen tank) for sale in its weight in SS (which aint cheap)
If I were personaly gonna do this I would build a seperate building, like a garage. If you want to make a good living off of it that is.
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fungophiliac
militantpacifist

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 190
Loc: yo mama
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Legoulash]
#3606756 - 01/10/05 04:35 AM (19 years, 22 days ago) |
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i guess most of you missed the point about this being SMALL scale, heh
-------------------- why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses? if you can't duck it, fuck it. -the makers of duck tape
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YidakiMan
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
#3608067 - 01/10/05 02:24 PM (19 years, 22 days ago) |
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No....
Small scale commercial is an oxymoron.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Legoulash]
#3610615 - 01/10/05 11:26 PM (19 years, 21 days ago) |
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How much space would you need to grow 150 lbs a month?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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YidakiMan
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#3611631 - 01/11/05 07:10 AM (19 years, 21 days ago) |
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I'm going to assume you mean oysters on wheat straw, just cuz thats the easiest and most established way to enter this business.
You'd need the ability to process at least 200 lbs of straw. That is 4-6 large square bales. When I pasteurized straw in a 55gal drum, I could do about a half bale each run. To fruit you would need a 8 foot by 5 foot closet or so. But you will find your customers will not really enjoy your downtime. That's why you'll need another room. Room 2 is the exact same size so that you can start fruiting Room 2, when it is best for Room 1 to cease production because of contamination issues. And finally you'll need a laboratory, a grain spawn area and a place to store substrates, equipment and misc.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
#3614062 - 01/11/05 06:08 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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I have about a 15' X 20' building that I can devote entirely to mushroom fruiting. I have another area for incubating.
I was thinking that I would do two species at a time with similar environmental needs, rotating species and strains to whatever is appropriate for the season. I would partition the room into two fruiting chambers and a walkway inbetween. I wouldn't want to try to grow paddy straw in winter, or enoki in summer since it would cost too much to heat and cool the building.
I really want to do a large run of reishi.
Outdoors I have the space to do huge patches of King Stropharia, paddy straw, shaggy manes, etc...
Those will come in in possibly hundred pound crops or more. I would sell as much as that fresh, and dry the rest.
I'm wary about growing paddy straw outside because of the possibility of mistaking a wild Aminita growing in the paddy straw bed.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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YidakiMan
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#3614322 - 01/11/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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You seem to have the space, the knowledge and the drive, but do you have the experience and the time? I tried to grow in an 8'x 4' closet and I found that I just plain lacked the experience to manage that amount of substrate. I guarantee that you will not be able to do all that you mention alone. If you pastuerize straw in 55 gallon drums, you will not be able to lift the straw yourself, you'll need a hoist or another person.
Your seasonal strategy is by far the most common to the industry. Most mushroom houses have poor environmental controls. This is for the exact reason you mention: cost.
If you want a large flush of reishi than you will need a large retort for sterilizing woodchip bags or are you thinking log cultivation?
Also, you mention shaggy manes. You plan on growing these commercially? Have you developed or obtained a strain that does not autolyze (liquify)? Those mushrooms are not traditionally at market for that reason.
How do you plan on storing hundreds of pounds of shrooms until they are sold? Yes, mushrooms tend to go like hotcakes. But they still have to exist someplace from picking until sale.
And the paddy straws, I believe that fresh paddy straws are in high demand from knowledgable chefs. I had one customer ask for it by name, keep in mind I live in the north midwest here.
Trial runs should always be run before entering a commercial operation. I do believe Stamets says this several times in GGMM.
And now, let me step off my bully pulpit, because I've really reached the end of what I tell you. There is a guy that used to post here, brainbreath, he has taken mushroom farming to the level you are interested in.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 4 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
#3614958 - 01/11/05 09:39 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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Shaggy manes would be a rare treat that would be delivered to the restaraunt and used the day that it was picked. I would have to drive about 3 hours round trip to do that, so unless I had at least a couple hundred ready to sell and sold at the same time, they would either go to waste, or be dried.
I'm thinking woodchips can be steam pasturized for 24 hours and spawned at a high rate of spawn. I'm not talking about hundreds of pounds, maybe 30 in one year total, possibly outdoors for flushes after the first.
For at least the first year I would probably grow only for samples to show to restaraunts, and let them know that I am in the process of entering the business.
Get my name out, and have product to show, if not reliable quantities.
The first
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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YidakiMan
Stranger

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 2,023
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#3614963 - 01/11/05 09:40 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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Sounds good. I've reverted to the same plan. Work on liberally growing for myself and showing other people what I can do for them.
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fungophiliac
militantpacifist

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 190
Loc: yo mama
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
#3617781 - 01/12/05 12:09 PM (19 years, 20 days ago) |
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small scale commercial is not an oxymoron. large scale is 2000 lbs a month with over 3 species. small scale is 50-200 lbs amonth with under 3 strains. as far as getting the labor done, who in here has absolutely no friends??? i have at least one that could help on a regular basis. space is not hard to configure with a little ingenuity. the main reason for having seperate spawning/fruiting chambers(aside from temp and rh) is cross contam. if you have one species that helps. oysters sporulate heavily so that is something to watch. proffesionalism is what makes a home project succesful.
-------------------- why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses? if you can't duck it, fuck it. -the makers of duck tape
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