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Offlinefungophiliac
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Registered: 11/08/04
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small scale commercial production questions
    #3480321 - 12/11/04 01:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hi, i just talked to a manager of a local specialty foods store about producing commercially viable edibles for his market and have a few questions
1) what are a few good species that require relatively similar growth temperatures and humidity levels, as well as an easy to manage gas level.
2) i am planning on converting a few rooms in my house to accomadate the space consuming shelfing for fruiting and spawning. what is the best way to keep a good grow room without growing mold. i thought maybe thick plastic sheeting to keep moisture in without mildew. (plastic wrap the whole room)what are some concerns i should think about(i have a few myself, i just want some outside input)
3) i can grow woodlovers as easy as non woodlover's as the resources for most mushrooms are easily available in my area, what are some of the efficiency rates for some gourmet edibles, as this will help me decide which species are most profitable
4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
6) are there any ways to use portable swampcoolers in the summer without breeding contamination?
7)does anyone have comparitive prices of wholesale edibles

i know this is not all of my questions but its a start : i will raise more i am sure throughout this thread. thanks for your help all. i hope i may outline or receive some outlines for homebased commercial fungus production cheaply.


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3480696 - 12/11/04 04:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

one more question
on the issue of swamp coolers, does anyone know of a good way to filter the air flow coming out of those things?
btw i think i may have narrowed my choices to lion's mane, tarragon oyster, and possibly maitake if i can find a way to do the damn temperature consistency. also does anyone think that dry ice may be a good source of co2?


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3481077 - 12/11/04 09:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Okay man. I don't want to come off a dick, but by your first question I could tell already that you are not ready for such a venture. Why don't you try growing a few different edibles first and then think about such a venture. But just to show I am not trying to be a dick, I will answer your questions.


1) Okay I lied, I'm not going to answer this one. You can research this one on your own. Check out Paul Stamets books on cultivation. The answers are at your finger tips.

2) You will not need to protect your lab from humidity, but you will have to keep it extraordinarily clean. Using cubic rooms for fruiting is not really recommended. It can be hard to control temperature in cubic rooms. Also, you'll need a central drain in the room. My old fruiting room was concrete walled so I wasnt very worried about it moulding. I used a 2" stud wall ontop of that 2-3 layers of 6mil plastic. I had planned to cover the plastic with FRP, but it got too expensive.

3) If you can process wood substrates as fast as your can process dung or straw I want in on your secret. You are doing something different from the rest of us.

4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
The answer is at the click of a mouse: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23599

5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
I've seen a few people have success by placing a few ultrasonic humidifiers at strategic locaitons within the grow room, but placing a humidifier in the HVAC system results in a more uniform environment.

6) Yes, you will need cooling during summer. I have no idea if a swamp cooler would work. But, frequently changing or cleaning anything reduces its risk to contaminate.

7) If you are cultivating in your home you will not be able to survive selling wholesale. Wholesale prices for button mushrooms are about $1/lb and for more fancy types like oysters or shiitakes $3/lb is more common. You need to sell direct to consumer.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3481283 - 12/11/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

People dont buy a lot of lions mane. We sold them 2 markets 4 a while then the fallowing week they would still be there. Oysters grow very very well from bags. Different varieties for different seasons.

Constant air flow is your best friend even if it isnt filtered. good fresh clean air with a fan circulating to get rid of stagnent air pockets.


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3481370 - 12/11/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Did you have any success with lions mane at restaurants? I was not growing any, but I had a customer ask for it. Interestingly, he also asked for fresh Paddy Straw mushrooms. Keep in mind, this is around the 42 latitude.


Edited by YidakiMan (12/11/04 11:38 AM)


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3481395 - 12/11/04 11:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

egh just sold all our mushrooms to one supermarket. I would have rather sold them to resturants though. Probably would have made a few more dollars. But the market was nice go in the back. Sign a form go home.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3481734 - 12/11/04 01:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

how much could one pull in from a commercial grow operation? sounds like an interesting and fun operation, is there really a big market for edibles?


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: TODAY]
    #3483923 - 12/11/04 09:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

YidakiMan said:
Okay man.  I don't want to come off a dick, but by your first question I could tell already that you are not ready for such a venture.  Why don't you try growing a few different edibles first and then think about such a venture.  But just to show I am not trying to be a dick, I will answer your questions. 



1) Okay I lied, I'm not going to answer this one.  You can research this one on your own.  Check out Paul Stamets books on cultivation.  The answers are at your finger tips.
    >firstly, i have paul stamets' gourmet and medicinal book. i just moved so its inaccesible. i thought maybe someone would be interested in discussing grow room management, sorry if this makes me sound lame. i was just looking for a sounding board besides i ts not like i asked for growth parameters of 10 different mushrooms all the way down to co2levels, or your left nut for a matter of fact. i am not meaning to be a dick or anytihng, i just think you may have the wrong idea of where i stand in relation to the science of mycology.

2) You will not need to protect your lab from humidity, but you will have to keep it extraordinarily clean.  Using cubic rooms for fruiting is not really recommended.  It can be hard to control temperature in cubic rooms.  Also, you'll need a central drain in the room.  My old fruiting room was concrete walled so I wasnt very worried about it moulding.  I used a 2" stud wall ontop of that 2-3 layers of 6mil plastic.  I had planned to cover the plastic with FRP, but it got too expensive. 
    >  i i am trying to work with what i have yo :smile: btw  if youve got a lot of humidity with exposed drywall, wood and other residential materials, they will mildew mmmmk. and i do not own this house so a floor drain is out of the question, however, i understand the need. i will find a way around it.

3) If you can process wood substrates as fast as your can process dung or straw I want in on your secret.  You are doing something different from the rest of us. 
> i didnt say i could process them as fast, i said they were both as easy to obtain.
4) aside from puffballs and shelf fungus, what are some other species that may fruit directly from the bag?
The answer is at the click of a mouse:  http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23599
thanks :smile:
5) are humidifiers clean enough to use in a grow room /fruiting chamber as i have described it?
I've seen a few people have success by placing a few ultrasonic humidifiers at strategic locaitons within the grow room, but placing a humidifier in the HVAC system results in a more uniform environment. 
i didnt ask how to manage the proper air currents, i asked if they were clean enough
6) Yes, you will need cooling during summer.  I have no idea if a swamp cooler would work.  But, frequently changing or cleaning anything reduces its risk to contaminate. 
>firstly ididnt ask if it was necassary, i asked if it could be filtered on its way out :smile: secondly, i am familiar technique, but thanks for the kick in the pants, although i do it myself on a daily basis, its good to know people care.
7) If you are cultivating in your home you will not be able to survive selling wholesale.  Wholesale prices for button mushrooms are about $1/lb and for more fancy types like oysters or shiitakes $3/lb is more common.  You need to sell direct to consumer. [/quote
> why the hell would i sell button mushrooms to a specialty store that stocks over 40 kinds of olive oil?  as for shittakes even, the manager i talked to metioned that japan has a corner on the market however, he prefers local growers and also the larger strains you cannot get from japan. even then i still would not cultivate shitake for a market, thats suicide, obviously.  and btw, as far as markets are concerned, i live in utah with about 8 or 10 ski basins within 3 hours from my house. restaraunts go nuts for fresh mushrooms and i am sure that lion's mane has a market here, as well as many of the less common cultivated mushrooms.  and the market i have is not just your run of the mill grocer.  he is shipping in all manner of wild harvests and selling and close to 20 a pound, i am looking to supply him in the off season.  and this man is connected to many of those restaurants i mentioned in town.  when he owned his own store he was selling 60 to 70 pounds a day of various species so i diont think i will have a problem with the market, in fact finding out what kind of a market i have here is what prompted me to undertake a venture like this. i hope i answered all of your responses. i took me quite a while to type this response and the only thing that you helped with was the link to what can be fruited from the bag, but thanks for trying.


--------------------
why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Offlinejmeuser
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3484428 - 12/11/04 11:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hey,

Cheers to you for investigating this opportunity. I've been growing for a few years on a (very) small scale and am also interested in selling to farmers markets, restaurants, and our local food coop in the near future. I spend about $200 a month on food and if I could even grow enough just to cover that expense ($3/pound X 100pounds = $300 and 100pounds/4 weeks/month = 25 pounds/week and 25pounds/1lb (wet weight)per 5lbs substrate = 125 pounds or 25 5lb bags/week) I would be stoked! (Please no agro growers telling me how innacurate these calcs are - I'm just brainstorming w/ limited information) I'm still not ready to embark until I really have a good understanding, skill set and have cruched some numbers with well-defined accuracy. I think that my next mini-project is going to be adding up my costs. In any case, I would be very interested in learning and sharing info with you and any small-scale commercial growers.


--------------------
-Jon

Have:
Pleurotus pulmonarius (Pheonix Oyster)
Letinula edodes (Shitake)
Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi)

Want for trade:
Other edibles . . .


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: TODAY]
    #3485669 - 12/12/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As much as you would like to pull in I suppose the more time you put in the more you reap.

a 100 pounds weekly is a lot of work for small scale. You would need a couple peoples help to get up too a 100 weekly.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3486004 - 12/12/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that is a interesting topic.
Probably the biggest problem is to economically produce enough mushrooms when the prices per pound are so low.
I mean you would have to inoculate/harvest/sterilize a lot of bags per hour in order to make a good profit ?
Another things that puzzles me when I think of commercial production is the sterilization process.
I just cannot imagine how you economically sterilize enough spawn/substrate bags at once without buying one of those very expensive huge autoclaves ...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3486037 - 12/12/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The thing is you eather make your own. Or you search and search and find an economical yet a couple thousand dollar autoclave. Ebay is a good one and so are industrial supply sellers that buy out old equipment and resale them.

Making your own can be done. But it takes some ballz and some imagination. all I will say is a 50 gallon steal drum. But I dont want to be liable for anyones death. You also need to modify it with a gauge and steam let off.

But for spawn you do need the big autoclave. 20 bag minimum.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3486829 - 12/12/04 03:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> all I will say is a 50 gallon steal drum. But I dont want to be liable for anyones death.
Yeah, safety that's the problem.
Do you know it there are some reliable instructions on how to build one out there on the net ?


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487100 - 12/12/04 04:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

never found one. sorry man


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3487375 - 12/12/04 06:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hey man, I said I wasn't trying to be a dick. Do a search man, I was in EXACTLY your position one year ago. You will find my posts that look the same as this one. And you know what I was told? I wasn't ready. Did I listen? No. Should I have.... Well yes. I may have learned a lot but I learned that through making unnessary mistakes. And those mistakes will cost a business its life. If you are just growing for fun and experience those mistakes just mean a little bit leaner stirfry.


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OfflineChromeCrow
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487427 - 12/12/04 06:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ragadinks said:
I just cannot imagine how you economically sterilize enough spawn/substrate bags at once without buying one of those very expensive huge autoclaves ...




well, as I am starting a small scale grow/ & giving mycological lessons, I to am interested in feed back on this thread.

I have two 24(?) qt PC, and I can do 4 medium mycobags of popcorn in each ( they hold almost as much as the large bags as they are taller but narrower), as I over fill them ( about 1-1 1/2 " below the filter patch) they hold about as much as 4 qt jars with shaking space left in them ( the jars I mean), so I do about 32 jars worth more or less, in each PCing.

I have searched for those large bags ( they look to be 6' or better) that I have seen stamets use, and I have seen them on a website called something like " I grow mushrooms"..... Tho I havent found the bags yet, those would be titties and beer. pastuerise a bale of straw using a couple 55 gal drums and propane burner units, and fill the bags, and your good to go. Till I find the bags, and rig up a ghetto bag filler, I wil remain PCing the straw/wood in filter patch bags


--------------------
ISO: Orissa, Malabar, z strain


Edited by ChromeCrow (12/12/04 06:22 PM)


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InvisiblePeterthinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3487531 - 12/12/04 06:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here is an untested dangerous thought.

:jester:
safer than pressurizing a 55 gal drum at least!
nitrogen cylinders are good to 2200 psi or so.
But who can say what they are good to if you go cutting into them!
Crazy?
You may choose only one


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--------------------
Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
NEWB NEWBIE NEWCOMER IGNORANT? QUESTIONS?
Click HERE HERE HERE HERE For detailed instructions with pictures on how to grow mushrooms. There is a lot of info on the Shroomery and this is what you need to know.


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Offlinejmeuser
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3487547 - 12/12/04 06:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>100 pounds weekly is a lot of work

Sorry for the confusion, I was hoping to produce more or less 100 pounds per month. I agree that 100 pounds per week would be a lot of work!

Cheers,


--------------------
-Jon

Have:
Pleurotus pulmonarius (Pheonix Oyster)
Letinula edodes (Shitake)
Ganoderma lucidum (Reishi)

Want for trade:
Other edibles . . .


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ChromeCrow]
    #3487550 - 12/12/04 06:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

About the 55 gallon. Make sure it is food grade or stainless steel. If it is not the paint will come off and it will rust. I pasteurized the straw in a basket in the drum and then lifted and drip dryed then onto a tarp to cool below 80 degrees. I inoculated the load with 2 large spawn bags and packed into plastic ducting by hand. Flip it upside down and hang it 2-4inches above the floor. let it settle and then punch full of holes.

I'd like to turn a drum into a sterilizer. It's easy to pasteurize a lot of bulk substrate, but sterilizing capacity sets me back. So you just weld a pressure gauge and a regulator (a stopcock) on the drum?


Edited by YidakiMan (12/12/04 07:25 PM)


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3489425 - 12/13/04 01:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have found this web page that shows how small scale cultivators in asia do it.
But I am not sure if it is a pasteurization or a proper sterilization.
Although the sterilization at lower temperatures like 100 degrees Celsius just takes more time than at 121 degrees ...

> So you just weld a pressure gauge and a regulator (a stopcock) on the drum?
I would make sure if the drum can cope with the higher pressure - otherwise the whole thing might blow up.
Maye using a keg as they are used for storing beer etc. would work cause they are designed for higher pressure ?

Peterthinks:
I like your idea, but I would not dare to build it myself unless I have seen someone with more knowledge and practical skills testing it out.


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Invisiblebooknik
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: ragadinks]
    #3489500 - 12/13/04 02:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you must have more pressure to go beyond pasturize toward sterilize you might consider a good used hot water heater w/ top cut off and fitted w/seal like older pc's. The pop off valve is usually set for 210F with an ultimate pressure of 125psi. Just might do the job. The working pressure is almost 10X more than the usual 15psi. Tempurature would have to be worked out.


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Offlinepshawny
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
    #3489508 - 12/13/04 02:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I sure wouldn't want to be in the same room as that autoclave. That would be alot of metal flying around when it blows up.


--------------------


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3494062 - 12/13/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You got it. You can use hot water heater let offs. But they arnt to reliable. The lowset possible heat helps to regulate. It takes some trial and error. The bags need to stay out of the water. It also needs to cool a whole day. After a while the lids might bow out. but they quickly loose a seal and presure escapes to a safer level. So after a while of use maybe 20 some hours you could expect something like that. But after the seal is lost you can use it like a steam stereliser instead.


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
    #3495408 - 12/14/04 12:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> you might consider a good used hot water heater w/ top cut off and fitted w/seal like older pc's.
That sounds interesting. But I have never seen such a design.
Has anyone got a pic ?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
    #3495684 - 12/14/04 02:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>The pop off valve is usually set for 210F with an ultimate pressure of 125psi.

210?F? This is the temperature water boils at the atmospheric pressure.


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Invisiblebooknik
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
    #3496341 - 12/14/04 08:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, Ok. I know it is just a bit unconventional. Conventional is what "they" are. The 15psi we seek is no problem the water tank will obviously handle that. The temp. will be the difficulty. If anyone tries it, be sure to use at minimum the standard pop off or two. The
pop off cavity, pressure escape route could be obstructed by substrate in a hurry to leave. cannot be too careful!!


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: booknik]
    #3496401 - 12/14/04 09:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

booknik said:
The 15psi we seek is no problem the water tank will obviously handle that. The temp. will be the difficulty.





All you have to do to raise the temperature of a container of water is to add flame or heat. Simple.
But you will not be able to get any thing above 212F unless your container can hold pressure. Pressure is the difficulty, not the temperature. The temperature will come naturally once we have the ability to hold 15PSI. Boiling water at 15PSI = 250F


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3502110 - 12/15/04 02:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I absolutely wouldn't recommend using your boiler for this though, they are not made for this and the whole thing could go very wrong.....


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InvisibleAlkaloids
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
    #3503723 - 12/15/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed.  Maybe this will be put it in perspective....

  A small retort (4 ft long X 4.5 ft diameter w/ 1/4 carbon steel rated for operation between 15-30 PSI) is going to be pushing a half a ton (american=2000lbs/ton).  This is not including the doors, feet or any other safety hardware that will make this safe to use.

  Generally (someone with more experience in pressure containment correct me if I'm wrong please) the main body itself and the doors will have to have a safety factor of at least 5 times the working PSI.  So that means if you are going to build your own home autoclave then you should make sure that  it can withstand AT LEAST 225 PSI (for the body of the vessel).  This is just in case something horrible happens and the safety valves fail.    :laser:

  I'm just not seeing this as a bright idea.  It might seem expensive, but I would say either spring for some more AA sterilizers or get a loan and get a real retort.

  Either way good luck.


--------------------


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Anno]
    #3504476 - 12/15/04 04:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

50 gallon steal drums is wear its at!


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OfflineLegoulash
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3504580 - 12/15/04 04:18 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Check out scrap yards, Iv seen huge stainless "tubs"(look like a giant oxygen/nitrogen tank) for sale in its weight in SS (which aint cheap)

If I were personaly gonna do this I would build a seperate building, like a garage. If you want to make a good living off of it that is.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Legoulash]
    #3606756 - 01/10/05 04:35 AM (19 years, 22 days ago)

i guess most of you missed the point about this being SMALL scale, heh


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3608067 - 01/10/05 02:24 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

No....

Small scale commercial is an oxymoron.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Legoulash]
    #3610615 - 01/10/05 11:26 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

How much space would you need to grow 150 lbs a month?


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3611631 - 01/11/05 07:10 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I'm going to assume you mean oysters on wheat straw, just cuz thats the easiest and most established way to enter this business.

You'd need the ability to process at least 200 lbs of straw. That is 4-6 large square bales. When I pasteurized straw in a 55gal drum, I could do about a half bale each run. To fruit you would need a 8 foot by 5 foot closet or so. But you will find your customers will not really enjoy your downtime. That's why you'll need another room. Room 2 is the exact same size so that you can start fruiting Room 2, when it is best for Room 1 to cease production because of contamination issues. And finally you'll need a laboratory, a grain spawn area and a place to store substrates, equipment and misc.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3614062 - 01/11/05 06:08 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I have about a 15' X 20' building that I can devote entirely to mushroom fruiting. I have another area for incubating.

I was thinking that I would do two species at a time with similar environmental needs, rotating species and strains to whatever is appropriate for the season. I would partition the room into two fruiting chambers and a walkway inbetween. I wouldn't want to try to grow paddy straw in winter, or enoki in summer since it would cost too much to heat and cool the building.

I really want to do a large run of reishi.

Outdoors I have the space to do huge patches of King Stropharia, paddy straw, shaggy manes, etc...

Those will come in in possibly hundred pound crops or more. I would sell as much as that fresh, and dry the rest.

I'm wary about growing paddy straw outside because of the possibility of mistaking a wild Aminita growing in the paddy straw bed.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3614322 - 01/11/05 07:07 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

You seem to have the space, the knowledge and the drive, but do you have the experience and the time? I tried to grow in an 8'x 4' closet and I found that I just plain lacked the experience to manage that amount of substrate. I guarantee that you will not be able to do all that you mention alone. If you pastuerize straw in 55 gallon drums, you will not be able to lift the straw yourself, you'll need a hoist or another person.

Your seasonal strategy is by far the most common to the industry. Most mushroom houses have poor environmental controls. This is for the exact reason you mention: cost.

If you want a large flush of reishi than you will need a large retort for sterilizing woodchip bags or are you thinking log cultivation?

Also, you mention shaggy manes. You plan on growing these commercially? Have you developed or obtained a strain that does not autolyze (liquify)? Those mushrooms are not traditionally at market for that reason.

How do you plan on storing hundreds of pounds of shrooms until they are sold? Yes, mushrooms tend to go like hotcakes. But they still have to exist someplace from picking until sale.

And the paddy straws, I believe that fresh paddy straws are in high demand from knowledgable chefs. I had one customer ask for it by name, keep in mind I live in the north midwest here.

Trial runs should always be run before entering a commercial operation. I do believe Stamets says this several times in GGMM.

And now, let me step off my bully pulpit, because I've really reached the end of what I tell you. There is a guy that used to post here, brainbreath, he has taken mushroom farming to the level you are interested in.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3614958 - 01/11/05 09:39 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Shaggy manes would be a rare treat that would be delivered to the restaraunt and used the day that it was picked. I would have to drive about 3 hours round trip to do that, so unless I had at least a couple hundred ready to sell and sold at the same time, they would either go to waste, or be dried.

I'm thinking woodchips can be steam pasturized for 24 hours and spawned at a high rate of spawn. I'm not talking about hundreds of pounds, maybe 30 in one year total, possibly outdoors for flushes after the first.

For at least the first year I would probably grow only for samples to show to restaraunts, and let them know that I am in the process of entering the business.

Get my name out, and have product to show, if not reliable quantities.

The first


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3614963 - 01/11/05 09:40 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Sounds good. I've reverted to the same plan. Work on liberally growing for myself and showing other people what I can do for them.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3617781 - 01/12/05 12:09 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

small scale commercial is not an oxymoron. large scale is 2000 lbs a month with over 3 species. small scale is 50-200 lbs amonth with under 3 strains. as far as getting the labor done, who in here has absolutely no friends??? i have at least one that could help on a regular basis. space is not hard to configure with a little ingenuity. the main reason for having seperate spawning/fruiting chambers(aside from temp and rh) is cross contam. if you have one species that helps. oysters sporulate heavily so that is something to watch. proffesionalism is what makes a home project succesful.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3622002 - 01/13/05 01:35 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Wow, so if you were just suppling a few restraunts or whatever wouldn't you need less that 100 pounds a month? I couldn't image making that much, but I could image 20 pounds a month.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3622400 - 01/13/05 05:18 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

H. ulmarius produces less spores than most other oyster type mushrooms. I would reccomend that as the main crop for a fledgling gourmet mushroom grow op.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3624454 - 01/13/05 05:20 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

you may be hard pressed to find a restaraunt that would except a pound or less a day. however some specialty stores may go for it. research it in your area.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3624569 - 01/13/05 05:45 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

So one restaraunt would probably buy 30-50 lbs a month?


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3624705 - 01/13/05 06:26 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Doubt it! Better be a ritzy place thats got money to waste. Not a lot of resturants use 30 to 50 pounds a ear.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3624729 - 01/13/05 06:32 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Who would buy gourmet mushrooms at all except ritzy places?

Do you sell?


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3624930 - 01/13/05 07:05 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

>Who would buy gourmet mushrooms at all except ritzy places?

Check out the Ethnic shops and talk to them about differnt mushrooms..

Could one make money with Reishii in a small area?
Because they would be easy to sell.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Legoulash]
    #3625043 - 01/13/05 07:21 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

The ritzy places are your best customer. Grocery stores will expect wholesale prices.

And if you're organic you can basically make up your own price. People will pay anything for something rare and organic.


Edited by YidakiMan (01/13/05 07:26 PM)


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3625442 - 01/13/05 08:33 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I don't know of any other way to grow mushrooms.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3625486 - 01/13/05 08:40 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I think Reishi is usually sold dried, is it not?


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3626320 - 01/13/05 11:50 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I've asked at a couple local herbal shops, in Milwaukee and Indianapolis, and neither had bulk dried Reishi or any other medicinal mushroom. I haven't checked for it in Chinatown in Chicago. I think that perhaps bulk dried reishi is an online thing.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3627806 - 01/14/05 10:24 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Rieshi is dried before sold. I talked to many of the health food stores and various other ethnic stores. The ones I have talked to dont want whole rieshi. They would rather have them capsulated or in an extract form.

Ritzy places are definetly the best customers. There just few and far between. I take my losses and dump em all of at a grocery store for ruffly 3 bucks a pound. Makes it easy for me, one stop.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3627886 - 01/14/05 10:53 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Did you talk to them as to why they wanted encapsulated form? Usually the capsules are powdered mycelium and in terms of traditional chinese medicine are of the lowest value.

When I get back into producing commercially, the first places I will solicite will be $30-$50 a plate restaurants.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3627895 - 01/14/05 10:56 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Yeah I wanna hit up the high end too.

They said people just dont want to take the time making teas or grinding the mushrooms them selfs.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3628766 - 01/14/05 02:22 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Too many stupid uninformed consumers in that market it would seem.

Oh well, just grind up your substrate blocks and put it in capsules for them. :smirk:


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3629944 - 01/15/05 01:27 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

here's my 2 cents: ski basins

ski basin restaraunts attract the high end tourism that supports a high end mushroom economy. or large hubs of commerce. hubs like like new york, los angelas, frisco, etc. will be bound to have some high end restaraunts that cater to that flavor. shop around. if they're is no market in your area you are shit out of luck. not everyone can be lucky enough to have a carvable piece of turf to make an economic niche in this biz.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3630707 - 01/15/05 11:07 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

I was talking to a friend in Ft. Collins CO. I think that is definately true. In season he can find King Oysters, Chantrelles, Varieties of buttons, shiitakes, porcini, and on and on.... all fresh at market.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3633102 - 01/15/05 09:19 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

fort collins is one of the only 3 schools i have found in north america that offer mycology graduate programs.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3634628 - 01/16/05 10:41 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Wow, I would've guessed more. In fact I know there are more: UWisconsin Madison, Penn State, and Fort Collins. I also know that Eastern Illinois U offers graduate programs. What about out west in Washington and Oregon?


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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3638558 - 01/17/05 11:19 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

the only three i know of are humbolt state in arcata CA, fort collins and wisconsin, and i forgot about illinois (i ruled it out cause its illinois.)


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3640491 - 01/17/05 06:31 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

UC-Berkely also has a mycology graduate program. Tom Volk told me he sent an undergrad of his there.

Penn State is probably the leading eastern mycology school or possibly side by side with UW Madison.

EIU is in Charleston, less than fifty miles from me. The head of the Bio dept is a mycologist and I talk to a mycology grad student everyonce and a while. Charleston is really small. I mean really really small. But if you like the country and you are good at finding cool people to be friendly, it'd be perfect. There are thousands of acres of woodlands within an hour of EIU.

Incidentally, I was told that Fort Collins has a horticulture degree as well.


Edited by YidakiMan (01/17/05 06:32 PM)


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Offlinefungophiliac
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3641669 - 01/17/05 11:10 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

oh yeah berkely is doing mostly tree pathogens due to the sudden oak death syndrome. myco-remediation and such. didnt necassarily want to do that for the rest of my life.

its nice to know of the others though. i hope to get accepted to arcata in a few years, but if i dint its nice to know the options.


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3641750 - 01/17/05 11:43 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I've been a undergrad major in just about every building on campus. Last semester, I tried biology. I figured I'd try out mycology on the "academic" level. To cut a bad story short, I wish you the best of luck. But to be honest if you are majoring or did major in biology and are NOT a pre-med, well then you are just plain out of your mind.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3641768 - 01/17/05 11:49 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Maybe it was just the school I am at, I found the biology department sadly lacking and unwilling in the kingdom mycota. Just as any bioclass we overviewed all the kingdoms. We spent all of 20 minutes on the ENTIRE kingdom Mycota and the lecture was done by the undergrad assistant (a junior). If I had corrected her on every single error I could have kept the class there all day long. But I knew that wasn't in the best interest of class. They are there to mindlessly swallow info. Don't think just memorize. I think that was the day I gave up on the department.

I even offered my culture collection, they turned it down.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3646491 - 01/18/05 11:13 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

amazing. dont let me go there. salt lake city is all premed and it is crazy. luckily the community college has some good botanists and microbiologists that i will bend the lectrure to suit my needs when i feel it is right. other than that there are a few mycology programs and humbolt state for instance teaches a few classes devoted to mycology i n the upper levels. anyhoot ive got a 3.5 gpa so far and i get paid for school so how can i turn down math and chemistry for money. especially when i talk to my botany teacher about drugs (in a round about way) heh heh


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #3668305 - 01/23/05 03:06 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

$3/lb? That seems like an extremely low amount for a quality product. In our area even crappy Oysters are retailing for about $18/lb. An acquaintance of mine is starting up a mushroom business and I think the stores were willing to give him around $7-9/lb.

Then again your market might be more saturated than the ones in our area.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Alkaloids]
    #3669155 - 01/23/05 06:12 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Ay bud! Whats new. We arnt in it for the money we just do it to kill time.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: Fluxburn]
    #3673630 - 01/24/05 06:11 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Fluxburn said:
Wow, so if you were just suppling a few restraunts or whatever wouldn't you need less that 100 pounds a month? I couldn't image making that much, but I could image 20 pounds a month.




actually i take back what i said earlier. you may be able to find one restaraunt that will accept 5 lbs every friday. that makes about 20 lbs a month. that way they can have a weekly special featuring your mushrooms. but again you wil ahve to look at the market in your area yourself.


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3677045 - 01/25/05 09:40 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

you can talk about where to sell your product until your blue in the face but ole-fashioned legwork is the only way your going to truly find your outlets.

diversity is k3y.

i sell at farmer's markets, nice restaurants, average restaurants, caterers, and grocers.

restaurants tend to pay better prices for lackluster product... i mean they are chopping and cooking, they really don't care what it looks like on the shelf.

my average restaurants/vendors buy up my dried product

caterers and grocers want pretty product.

i get the most profit at the market. assuming good weather, i move most of my product there. it also acts as my meeting grounds to make connections to even more outlets.

all of my outlets had to be found, searched out, negotitated, and maintained. believe me. commercial mushroom production is 33% cultivation and 66% marketing.


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: debianlinux]
    #3679409 - 01/25/05 07:10 PM (19 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:
commercial mushroom production is 33% cultivation and 66% marketing.



Nicely put  :thumbup:


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: pshawny]
    #3690609 - 01/27/05 08:28 PM (19 years, 4 days ago)

<-----restaurants tend to pay better prices for lackluster product... i mean they are chopping and cooking, they really don't care what it looks like on the shelf.

thats nice to know. thank you.


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3711837 - 02/01/05 03:59 AM (19 years, 12 hours ago)

map out a plan of what you're going to do every step of the way from the first culture to delivering the product. The better you have it planned out the more likely you will be to succeed.

Here's some answers to a few of your questions from my perspective.

Oysters and Lion's mane will grow well in the same room. I haven't anything other than shiitake in the room with them, and that doesn't work well, you either end up with shii blocks covered with trich or dried out oysters/lion's mane.

Oysters are the most profitable to grow small scale for the cost of supplies and amount of work involved.

Humidifiers are as clean as the room they're in, as clean as you keep them. They aren't inherently dirty.

I haven't tried it but I think using a swamp cooler inside your house would be disasterous.

Here's a link to various USDA reports on wholesale prices. Alot of the major US markets are covered. http://www.produce1.com/producemarkets.htm

To have effective constant rotation you'll need at least 4 growrooms and space to incubate the columns. You'll either need to be able to switch your growspace to the correct parameters for incubating, or have a dedicated incubation room. I personally wouldn't advise growing inside the house, especially a house you don't own. Are the floors wood? Plastic sheeting will not contain the water, I can guarantee you will destroy the floor if it's wood, Water's gonna find it's way to the lowest spot :wink: If you do decide to grow inside the house, use tyvek, not plastic sheeting. It costs 2-3 times as much as plastic sheeting but it holds the moisture while allowing gas exchange.

The restaurants I sell to all buy 20-30 lbs a week, and the grocery stores I sell to buy 15-20. Try to find a produce broker,look in the yellow pages under produce. I have a 200 lb a week customer I found that way  :wink:

Familiarize yourself with the 2001(soon to be 2005) food code :wink:


Edited by brainbreath (02/01/05 05:50 AM)


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: brainbreath]
    #3806592 - 02/20/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i figured it out. ill post pictures as soon as it is setup. be on the lookout for a nice commercial grow, low-tek, tek


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: fungophiliac]
    #3806623 - 02/20/05 12:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hey brainbreath,
can you explain how to divide up the fruiting space in order to get constant rotation?

Do you tally up total time from pinhead initation til the block is spent (or at least moved outside), then divide by four? Fill a quadrant on that interval?


Edited by YidakiMan (02/20/05 04:06 PM)


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Re: small scale commercial production questions [Re: YidakiMan]
    #3948467 - 03/21/05 11:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

that is similar to what i am doing. except 4 is not a fixed value but a variable depending on how long the fruiting cycle is. i figure 1 harvest a week is enough to feed a market. although if you get a good buyer you may be able to negotiate higher prices for quicker harvests. it depends on how concerned they are about freshness.


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why are there so many more horses asses than there are horses?

if you can't duck it, fuck it.
-the makers of duck tape



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