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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 15 days
The Fair Tax -
    #3385018 - 11/19/04 05:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The Fair Tax is a national consumption tax. It provides a rebate up to the poverty level to take out the regressive nature of consumption taxes on the working poor. I find this to be quite an exciting prospect. The time has come to abolish the Internal Revenue Service. Slay the beast and FREE THE PEOPLE!

http://linder.house.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Resources.Home&Resource_id=1

www.fairtax.org

Some positive points about the Fair Tax:

The Internal Revenue Code consists of 40 volumes and 7.5 million words. Every item that you buy has a built in cost for complying with the expansive and intrusive Tax Code. Eliminating the current code eliminates the hidden costs and waste associated with it. The costs of regulation, corporate taxes, and payroll taxes amounts to over 20% of the price of every product that you buy. The reductions in price, inefficiency and waste will go a very long way in offsetting the consumption tax. Though consumption taxes would hike the price of the goods you buy, the prices themselves would be dropping to help even things out.

Low income workers will get an immediate increase in their pay. They would not have to pay FICA taxes, and their employers wouldn?t either. This would allow them to raise wages. FICA taxes account for 15.3% of the income for low income workers. High income workers would not pay any income tax.

The Fair Tax would be paid by everyone. Illegal aliens pay. Rich people pay. Tourists pay. People who earn their money in the underground economy pay. When drug dealers spent the money that they make on goods and services, we would finally be tapping that underground economy to finance taking care of the problems that drugs have posed on society. Illegal aliens would pay but receive no rebate. Illegal aliens and tourists would effectively be the highest taxed demographic by percentage, paying the full consumption tax rate. Rich people that hide money in offshore accounts to avoid income taxes would now be paying consumption taxes and contributing to the system. The overall tax rate would be reduced because more people are contributing to the system.

Job creation would be one of the best aspects of the system. US companies would see a substantial decrease in their costs, up to more than 20%. This will allow us to be more competitive in world markets and vanquish the trade deficit. The manufacturing sector will be rejuvenated. Foreign corporations will have an incentive to build new plants here because the profits that they make will not be taxed by the United States Government any longer.

The working poor will benefit from the Fair Tax. They will be paid more money for their work when payroll taxes are abolished. The prices for what they buy will drop, and they will get a rebate of the consumption taxes that they pay up to the poverty level.

A college education will instantly become cheaper. Educational expenses are not taxed under the Fair Tax plan. These expenses are now paid with after tax income. Let?s say your federal tax rate is 30%, and you pay 7% in FICA. Let?s also say that college tuition is going to cost you $20,000 a year by the time the lad gets in school. To pay that $20,000 in after tax income, you would have to make $27,400 in income before taxes. Under the Fair tax plan you would save $7,400 a year in educational costs in this scenario. The Fair Tax plan also would make private schooling cheaper for traditional K-12 education. It would strengthen this nation?s educational base, and it would be all done within the confines of free choice and the private market.

Everyone will see the taxes that they pay. No costs will be hidden. Many people don?t pay taxes, or more correctly, see the actual taxes that they are paying. This would encourage people to be more interested in what the government does with the money that we pay. An informed populous is a dangerous populous to the fans of Big Government. If this government had to balance the budget and everyone was force to share the burden of it?s costs, you would have a taxpayer revolt. More people will start demanding accountability and freedom from Big Government. The time has come to free the people.

FREE THE PEOPLE!


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3385072 - 11/19/04 05:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The tariffs and excise taxes originally included in the Constitution are good enough for me. No need to add anything extra on top of that. Though perhaps this Consumption tax could be implemented at the state level.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: silversoul7]
    #3385120 - 11/19/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just admit that you hate socialists.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3385141 - 11/19/04 05:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
Just admit that you hate socialists.



I hate socialism, but not socialists. Now admit that your religion is bullshit.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: silversoul7]
    #3385215 - 11/19/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

When did I mention anything Islamic in this thread?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3385222 - 11/19/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

When did I mention socialists in this thread?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: silversoul7]
    #3385233 - 11/19/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Touch


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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Registered: 05/10/03
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Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3385553 - 11/19/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zahudulallah said:
Touch?.




:rotfl:

That may the only funny thing you've ever said.

<Awaiting witty rebuttal>


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3385615 - 11/19/04 07:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How dare you discuss something logical in this forum. BAN HIM!

lol, seriously though, the IRS was an organization made during wartime and i think many of thier policies are outdated, if not illegal and unconstitutional.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3385648 - 11/19/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

On top of my general libertarian opposition to any tax above and beyond the excise taxes that served this country admirably for over a century, I have a utilitarian argument against consumption based taxes: they will not long remain the primary form of taxation. While in one fell swoop the income tax may be abolished and a consumption based tax implemented, we will be forever one tragedy, one disaster away from the income taxes return, and that would be on TOP of whatever consumption based tax we have. The liberals would have no problem with that; after all, if Europe is doing it how could it be bad?

If the Republicans were not Republicans and the Democrats were not Democrats my position might be different. But both groups are so abysmal at doing the right thing that I am supremely confident that they will in short time fuck up and turn the wise decision of replacing the income tax into the horrid decision of opening the window for both income and consumption taxes on the federal level.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3385741 - 11/19/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
That may the only funny thing you've ever said.




He was a lot funnier as Zahid.
And AllMakesCombined.
I don't know why he ditched that one.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: Gijith]
    #3385779 - 11/19/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A question regarding this fair tax - would this system be able to provide universal health-care coverage, or would it assume that health-care should be dealt with in the private sector? as well, would the increase in immediate pay that low-income workers see actually weigh out when we factor in the loss of social programs? well - i guess one can't really claim that the US has any "social programs" even worth mentioning - but, for example, if one compares the very high rate of taxation in Denmark to the relatively low rate of taxation in the United States, you might think that a low-income worker would be better off in the United States. However, after you factor in free education, health-care, job benefits, etc - as well as free education,health care, student support, and so on for your children, the low-income worker in Denmark ends up being just slightly better off (of course this is a very subjective claim, but you get the point that i'm making). while i definitely agree on principle that a federal organization like the IRS is one of the worst ways that we could develop social programs, i'm very wary of policies like this. often times they leave the poor to "make it on their own" - and when there is no standard of living wage, the most expensive education in the western world, and no standard of employers giving their employees health-care - it is often just not possible for them to do so...

just a few thoughts :rasta:


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: Krishna]
    #3385813 - 11/19/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i believe this bill relates to how government will collect revenue, it dictates nothing as to how it will spend it.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
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Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: Tao]
    #3385859 - 11/19/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well i will take a look through the links suggested above, but it seemed to me that one of the reasons given for this proposal was "less tax means more money for people" - and, i can't disagree - the federal government is wasting our tax dollars at unprecedented levels - but i'm not sure if, for example, eliminating corporate taxation would help the citizens of America...


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 15 days
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: Krishna]
    #3386927 - 11/20/04 01:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Who do you thinks pays corporate taxes? Taxes are a cost of doing business, like electricity, machinery, wages, and hookers for the sales guys. All costs, including hookers for the sales guys, are factored into the price of every product that you buy. You don't think they might account for the cost of taxes? You already pay a consumption tax on every product that you buy. Right now it is hidden in the price. I want to see it out in the open. I want transparency and outright naked truth when it comes to taxes.

And this is a methond of revenue generation, not disbursement. This bill cannot stop our government from spending too much of our money. Apparently nothing can.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 15 days
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3386932 - 11/20/04 01:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
On top of my general libertarian opposition to any tax above and beyond the excise taxes that served this country admirably for over a century, I have a utilitarian argument against consumption based taxes: they will not long remain the primary form of taxation. While in one fell swoop the income tax may be abolished and a consumption based tax implemented, we will be forever one tragedy, one disaster away from the income taxes return, and that would be on TOP of whatever consumption based tax we have. The liberals would have no problem with that; after all, if Europe is doing it how could it be bad?

If the Republicans were not Republicans and the Democrats were not Democrats my position might be different. But both groups are so abysmal at doing the right thing that I am supremely confident that they will in short time fuck up and turn the wise decision of replacing the income tax into the horrid decision of opening the window for both income and consumption taxes on the federal level.




You layed out the nightmare scenario. For a consumption tax to be put in place, we have to require the abolishment of the income tax and the Internal Revenue Service. Allowing Big Government to have both would be an invitation to rape.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3386965 - 11/20/04 01:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ancalagon is getting me paranoid.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 15 days
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3387023 - 11/20/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Me too, in private quarters I have proposed a 'final solution' for Ancalagon. We must either break his will or break the man himself. His insolence on this issue will not be tolerated.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 5 years, 15 days
Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: silversoul7]
    #3403821 - 11/24/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The tariffs and excise taxes originally included in the Constitution are good enough for me. No need to add anything extra on top of that. Though perhaps this Consumption tax could be implemented at the state level.




The great thing about the Fair Tax is that it eliminates tax breaks for corporations. Most of the lobbyist core and the special interest money that dominates our political landscape would vanish. More power would be given back to the people.

I think that the Fair Tax is one of the most practical real world applications of libertarian philosophy. If you vocal libertarians ever expect to make an impact you need to propose concrete real world solutions. The Fair Tax is as close as it can get to doing that with our expansive and intrusive tax code.

The time has come to free the people.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: The Fair Tax - [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3403857 - 11/24/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Like I said, I'm fine with implementing it at the state level. Tariffs and excise taxes don't offer tax breaks for corporations either.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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