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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
A National Sales Tax
    #4010024 - 04/03/05 10:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I really think that this is a one of the best ideas out there right now...

A national sales tax

A national sales tax
George Will
March 31, 2005

WASHINGTON -- The power to tax involves, as Chief Justice John Marshall said, the power to destroy. So does the power of tax reform, which is one reason why Rep. John Linder, a Georgia Republican, has a 133-page bill to replace 55,000 pages of tax rules.

His bill would abolish the IRS and the many billions of tax forms it sends out and receives. He would erase the federal income tax system -- personal and corporate income taxes, the regressive payroll tax and self-employment tax, capital gains, gift and estate taxes, the alternative minimum tax and the earned income tax credit -- and replace all that with a 23 percent national sales tax on personal consumption. That would not only sensitize consumers to the cost of government with every purchase, it would destroy K Street.

``K Street'' is shorthand for Washington's lawyer-lobbyist complex. It exists to continually complicate and defend the tax code, which is a cornucopia from which the political class pours benefits on constituencies. By replacing the income tax -- Linder had better repeal the 16th Amendment, to make sure the income tax stays gone -- everyone and all businesses would pay their taxes through economic choices, and K Street's intellectual capital, which consists of knowing how to game the tax code, would be radically depreciated.

Under his bill, he says, all goods, imported and domestic, would be treated equally at the checkout counter, and all taxpayers -- including upward of 50 million foreign visitors annually -- would pay ``as much as they choose, when they choose, by how they choose to spend.'' And his bill untaxes the poor by including an advanced monthly rebate, for every household, equal to the sales tax on consumption of essential goods and services, as calculated by the government, up to the annually adjusted poverty level.

Today the percentage of taxpayers who rely on professional tax preparers is at an all-time high. The 67 percent of tax filers who do not itemize may think they avoid compliance costs, which include nagging uncertainty about whether one has properly complied with a tax code about the meaning of which experts differ. But everyone pays the cost of the tax system's vast drag on the economy.

Linder says Americans spend 7 billion hours a year filling out IRS forms and at least that much calculating the tax implications of business decisions. Economic growth suffers because corporate boards waste huge amounts of time on such calculations rather than making economically rational allocations of resources. Money saved on compliance costs would fund job creation.

Corporations do not pay payroll and income taxes and compliance costs, they collect them from consumers through prices. So the 23 percent consumption tax would allow taxpayers to stop paying the huge embedded cost of corporate taxation. Linder says the director of the Congressional Budget Office told him it costs individuals and businesses about $500 billion to remit $2 trillion to Washington. And studies show that it costs the average small business $724 to collect and remit $100.

In 1945, corporations paid more than one-third of the government's revenues. Now they pay only 11 percent because corporations, especially multinationals, are voluntary taxpayers. In a world increasingly without borders that block capital movements, corporations pay where the burden is lowest. Linder says $6 trillion in offshore accounts would have an incentive to come home under his plan.

Furthermore, by ending payroll and corporate taxes, America would become the only nation selling goods with no tax component -- such as Europe's value added tax -- in their prices. With no taxes on capital and labor, multinationals would, Linder thinks, stampede to locate here, which would be an incentive for other nations to emulate America. ``This,'' Linder says, ``would unleash freedom around the globe.''

Critics argue that ending the income tax, with its deductibility of charitable contributions, would depress giving. Linder says: Piffle. In 1980, when the top personal income tax rate was 70 percent, a huge incentive for giving, individual charitable contributions were $40.7 billion. In 1986 the top rate was reduced to 28 percent, and by 1988 charitable giving was $86.7 billion. The lesson, says Linder, is that we give more money when we have more money.

When Speaker Dennis Hastert published a book last year, he was startled that interviewers were most interested in talking about Linder's bill, which then had 54 co-sponsors. This year Hastert added Linder to the Ways and Means Committee. Linder cheerfully says his bill would reduce Ways and Means to ``a B committee'' by ending the political fun of making the tax code ever more baroque for the benefit of K Street's clients. Bliss.

====================================================================
FREE THE PEOPLE!

www.fairtax.org

Like this article?
Go to fairtax.org and join 'Americans For Fair Taxation'


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OfflineSmallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4010126 - 04/03/05 10:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

FUCK THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about Earned Income Credit and child care credits for working single mothers? What about people who are so poor that they don't usually owe income tax? What about U.S. citizens who are making millions of dollars in other countries, and are not here to buy products in the U.S. and so therefore will no longer contribute a dime?


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4010180 - 04/03/05 10:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This would be better than our current tax structure, and I certainly support the repeal of the 16th Amendment, but sales tax affects the price of goods in a way that harms the market. Considering that state sales taxes already have this effect, I shudder to think what an added national sales tax would do.

What the federal government really needs to do is go back to apportionment from the states, as established in the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation before it. This was basically where the federal government would tax a portion of the total revenue from state government in proportion to that state's population. The assumption was that states would then do the same for its counties, and so on down the line. This had the effect of decentralizing government, and making it accountable at a local level. The best tax to implement at the local level is the Land Value Tax, a form of which existed under the Articles of Confederation. Of course, the federal government is not likely to go back to apportionment from the states because it would have to dramatically shrink its own size to do so.

Anyway, I'm glad they're talking about ending federal income taxes, but the national sales tax is not the best way to go about replacing them.


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OfflineSmallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010190 - 04/03/05 10:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

now that I said that I see the "monthly rebate" thing, but still fuck this shit, i view this as yet another attempt by Uncle Sam to tighten the noose around our necks. There are many, many things to consider, and I'm certain countless people would be harmed, and the poor will sacrifice their privacy and freedom of movement because they will have to make sure the gov't knows where they are every single month so that they can get their rebate checks.

And 23%? Good shit, fuck fuck fuckedy fuck fuck fuck. All the benefits of under the table jobs will be gone etc. etc. We must fight for our rights!


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4010203 - 04/03/05 10:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It does seem better than the current structure, of course not as good as it could be but a good possible starting point. What chance does this have of actually passing though?

This seems like something republicans may support, and seeing as they now have the majority, perhaps we will see this become reality.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010204 - 04/03/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
FUCK THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about Earned Income Credit and child care credits for working single mothers?



What about it? They won't have to pay any income tax at all now.

Quote:

What about people who are so poor that they don't usually owe income tax?



They'll benefit too from the added employment opportunities that come with a more business-friendly tax system.

Quote:

What about U.S. citizens who are making millions of dollars in other countries, and are not here to buy products in the U.S. and so therefore will no longer contribute a dime?



What about them? If they're making their money in other countries, they're not paying income tax either. There are some businesses which keep their assets in the Virgin Islands precisely because of income taxes. Removing the income tax would give them great incentive to move their assets back here and do business in this country.


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InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 27,904
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: JesusChrist]
    #4010209 - 04/03/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds good to me.

I'm one of those so called "poor" that dont pay income tax. That's not fair at all. Just because i was an idiot and dropped out of school, does not mean someone who is hard working and successful should subsidize my existence. Its time for personal responsibility and accountability. The rich dont owe the poor anything. If it wasn't for the "evil rich" average citizens would be condemned to till the soil all day every day just to grow enough to eat.

End class warfare!


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OfflineSmallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Silversoul]
    #4010264 - 04/03/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Including state income tax this would make a 75 dollar item cost around 100 bucks. outrageous!


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010320 - 04/03/05 11:07 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
Including state income tax this would make a 75 dollar item cost around 100 bucks. outrageous!



Well, you have to consider how much that $75 item would cost without income tax. Businesses tend to pass any production cost onto the consumer, so the $75 item would probably go down in cost with the elimination of income tax, and then go back up slightly above the original price, but not as much you'd think. Like I said, I think there are better forms of taxation we could use, but it's still better than the income tax.


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 7,865
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010342 - 04/03/05 11:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

well, try saving your money instead of blowng it on, say, the newest computer gear you can get, or that better guitar you want, or that new bigger tv, or etc, eo etc, ro etc....

this will turn the nation into savers, imo.

i dont know how to stress this point enough.... if you dont want to get taxed... SAVE YOUR MONEY. put it into the stock market and MAKE MORE MONEY TAX FREE.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineSmallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Silversoul]
    #4010361 - 04/03/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

businesses will also retain their pricing structure now that it has been established. Just like when gas went from a dollar a gallon somewhere around 1998 to over $1.25, I knew we would never see dollar a gallon pricing again. Once they get consumers used to a certain price, they tend to leave it pretty much the same or go higher whenever possible, even when given lower costs. They just tran$form the $aving$ into higher profit$. Fucking vultures.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: automan]
    #4010379 - 04/03/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

put it into the stock market and MAKE MORE MONEY TAX FREE.

With what kind of taxation? Under current tax code money you make through stocks is taxable.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010381 - 04/03/05 11:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

not with competition. if i sell socks and my costs just fell 50%, i would try to beat my competitors prices to get a stronger hold on the marketplace..... and my competitor is thinking the same thing, rest assured.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: automan]
    #4010384 - 04/03/05 11:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Unfortunately, our economy largely relies heavily on consumption, so I'm not so sure that the amount saved will offset the damage to the GDP. Taxes on either the supply side(income tax) or the demand side(sales tax) end up hurting the market. That's why I think a Land Value Tax is the best one. It doesn't hurt supply, since land is fixed, and by ending land speculation, it will actually free up more land to meet demand. Since everyone needs land, it won't affect demand except when it comes to land speculation, which is harmful to the economy anyway.


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OfflineSmallworlds
Trippin' fool -Merry Prankster

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 4,207
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: automan]
    #4010387 - 04/03/05 11:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

hahaha yeah, imagine what such a bill would actually do, it would bring on utter chaos. Never before seen budget defecits due to no-one spending money, totally stifled economy due to no-one spending money, retail level businesses closing their doors due to, you guessed it, no-one spending any money. Hoardes of people invading Canada to spend their money. Hell, we'll be in another depression within a year.


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 7,865
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: cb9fl]
    #4010388 - 04/03/05 11:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
put it into the stock market and MAKE MORE MONEY TAX FREE.

With what kind of taxation? Under current tax code money you make through stocks is taxable.




it is as income.... i thought we were talking about nixing the income tax.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010395 - 04/03/05 11:20 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Smallworlds I agree when it comes to large monopolistic company practices. However if, and that's a huge fucking if, the economy is truly free then there will always be the little guy saying screw that let me sell cheaper and get more customers. Unfortunately the state of corporate law and patent law screw the little guy while giving the large corporation all the power.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010409 - 04/03/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
hahaha yeah, imagine what such a bill would actually do, it would bring on utter chaos. Never before seen budget defecits due to no-one spending money, totally stifled economy due to no-one spending money, retail level businesses closing their doors due to, you guessed it, no-one spending any money. Hoardes of people invading Canada to spend their money. Hell, we'll be in another depression within a year.




i see the possibility, but thats it. if anything, it will drive people to buy from the internet, thus creating a huge boom for such businesses. people laying infrastructure, providing service, stating online businesses, etc. i think it would be exciting.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010425 - 04/03/05 11:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
businesses will also retain their pricing structure now that it has been established. Just like when gas went from a dollar a gallon somewhere around 1998 to over $1.25, I knew we would never see dollar a gallon pricing again. Once they get consumers used to a certain price, they tend to leave it pretty much the same or go higher whenever possible, even when given lower costs. They just tran$form the $aving$ into higher profit$. Fucking vultures.



That's bullshit. Gas prices are affected by the fact that oil is a non-renewable resource which is constantly diminishing. Diminishing supply means prices will continue to rise. If, hower, supply can be replenished, as is the case with most consumption goods, then the price can fluctuate in proportion to that and demand. Price fixing never works when more than one company is involved, because someone always inevitably breaks from the cartel in order to win an advantage over their competitors. I suggest taking Econ 101.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: A National Sales Tax [Re: Smallworlds]
    #4010444 - 04/03/05 11:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Smallworlds said:
hahaha yeah, imagine what such a bill would actually do, it would bring on utter chaos. Never before seen budget defecits due to no-one spending money, totally stifled economy due to no-one spending money, retail level businesses closing their doors due to, you guessed it, no-one spending any money. Hoardes of people invading Canada to spend their money. Hell, we'll be in another depression within a year.



Utter chaos? You have no idea what you're talking about. It would harm the market, but so do income taxes. At worst, it might make our GDP go down by a slight margin. We already pay indirect income tax by paying the cost of corporate taxes that have been passed on to the consumer.


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