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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Tax Time
    #4051260 - 04/13/05 06:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This is from the Neal Boortz website, www.boortz.com, yesterday. Just wanted to see what y'all think.

Quote:

This Friday is April 15th. Unfortunately, it won't just be another beautiful spring day. It's tax day. The day you must file your federal income tax return. Many of you who are reading this have not yet begun to fill your forms out. If you're like so many Americans, you're dreading it. You're procrastinating. A survey conducted for Associated Press shows that by a slight margin Americans would rather go to the dentist rather than fill out their taxes. Seventy percent of Americans say that their taxes are too complicated. Many of you will have to write a check to the Imperial Federal Government. Go ahead, file an extension. Nine million other taxpayers will. You still have to write the check.

Several classes of people come to mind around this time of year.

First, we have those who pay no federal income taxes at all. This is almost 50% of all income-earning Americans. It is no mistake that so many Americans don't share in the responsibility of paying for the operation of the federal government. It's been this way since the beginning. They managed to get three-fourths of the states to ratify the 16th Amendment to our Constitution, the one allowing an income tax, by convincing most of America that only wealthy individuals in a few Northeastern states would have to pay the tax. Americans seem to find it so easy to support taxes ... as long as other people are paying them.* This might explain why so many Americans on the lower end of the earnings scale aren't really worked up about tax reform.

Secondly, we have those who not only don't pay taxes, they actually get a check on April 15th. These are the Earned Income Tax Credit freeloaders. Their so-called tax "credit" exceeds the amount of taxes they owe, so the government just writes them a check for the amount of the unused "credit." Washington likes to call this a "refundable credit." People who speak plain English call it a welfare check, a handout, or outright thievery. For the life of me I can't see how an honest American can sit there and take a check for the balance of their unused tax credit, knowing that money came out of their neighbor's wallet, and not feel guilty as hell.

Then we have the great American wage earners who have no clue as to how much they paid in federal income taxes this year. They just know they're getting a refund. That's it. If you walk up to one of these myrmidons right after they've finished filling out their 1040 and ask them how much they had to pay in taxes this year, their mouths will open and they will promptly utter that one phrase that makes thrills the political mind; that one phrase that is an aural tattoo of abject stupidity: "I didn't have to pay anything. I'm getting some back." These are the people who used to ride the short bus to school and who are now anxiously waiting for that magic day when their rent-to-own furniture will finally be all theirs. They will celebrate by tearing off those little "do not remove under penalty of law" labels. These people are truly the poster children for government schools.

Then there's that small group of Americans who know the score; who know how much they earned and how much they paid in taxes. They also know that they're resented, even hated, by the rest. Amazing, isn't it? Americans who pay no federal income taxes, Americans who are essentially getting a free ride ... these Americans actually resent the people who are paying their way ... resent them because they are more successful, because they make more money. I digress. Back to our final group of taxpayers, the top 50% of income earners who pay about 96% of all income taxes. The top 1% of income earners, those who earn about 18% of all income, but who pay 38% of all federal income taxes. These are the people who drive our economy through their creative abilities. They're the ones who invest in old businesses and begin new ones. They are called "boss" by about 80% of U.S. workers, and they're being rode hard and put up wet by our current tax system.

It doesn't have to be this way.

We can fund the operations of the federal government without punishing achievement. We can fund the government without creating and sustaining class envy. We can fund the government without putting American businesses at a competitive disadvantage with much of the rest of the world. We can fund the government while allowing American workers to receive 100% of their paychecks each and every payday, and allowing them to become savers and investors. It's called The FairTax .. .and the book is coming to a book store near you soon.

*Case in point. The wage cap on Social Security right now is $90,000. After that your wages aren't subject to the Social Security tax. A lot of people who make much less than $90,000 a year seem to think that it would be a real nifty idea to raise that wage cap to, say, $200,000 a year to "save" Social Security. They would much rather see other people pay more taxes than to actually take on some of the responsibility for investing their own retirement funds in a private account.






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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,732
Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051422 - 04/13/05 06:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Seems to be written by someone in the highest tax bracket.

To function efficiently, societies must have some type of resource reallocation. If you make more money, you pay more money. Tax brackets are based on a person's ability to pay. To those in the highest tax bracket, this seems to be a foreign concept. Throughout my life, I stand a good chance of making the highest tax bracket which is approximately $300K. When this happens I won't have any gripes about paying my taxes.

This article displays the elitest ideals that often come with money as exemplified by the paragraph:

"The top 1% of income earners, those who earn about 18% of all income, but who pay 38% of all federal income taxes. These are the people who drive our economy through their creative abilities. They're the ones who invest in old businesses and begin new ones. They are called "boss" by about 80% of U.S. workers, and they're being rode hard and put up wet by our current tax system."

The reality is that these individuals are usually the benefits of a family lineage of money. You need money to make money, and most have simply inherited their assests, or lived a life which makes privy to advantages others might not necesarily have. While the story of hard work leading to millions is the american dream, it is hardly representative of the upper class. Its not hard to become a millionaire when theres someone there to guide you every step of the way.

What this individual fails to realize is that in order to be called "boss" one needs to have workers. The elitest, ultra-rich "boss" has become that way because all the free-loading strains on the system make him that way.

These elitists don't drive and support the economy, the working class does. What they fail to realize is that if we don't tax and redistribute some money back to those that need it, the middle class will eventually fall out and disappear. When this happens, and there is no longer a "working, middle class" who is going to be left to call them "boss"?


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051426 - 04/13/05 06:45 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

That article is pretty arrogant and highly prejudiced towards the lower class. It insinuates that not paying income tax is the same as not paying taxes. Sales taxes fall most heavily on the working poor, as do payroll taxes and property taxes(though not land value tax). The Earned Income Tax Credit is meant to offset these regressive taxes, in much the same way the monthly rebate is meant to offset the regressiveness of the FairTax.

Speaking of which, that rebate doesn't make the FairTax progressive, despite some people's protests to the contrary. It may offset any negative effects away from the poor, but it would shift the burden to the middle class, who are the biggest consumers. This would seem to have the effect of widening the gap between rich and poor, and marginalizing the middle class. Taxing people more for being rich may not be right, but neither is indiscriminately taxing consumption. Some consumption can have negative effects, but other consumption is good, both for the economy and for people's standard of living.

Don't get me wrong--I have no love for the income tax, but the so-called FairTax is not the right answer. I've said enough about about the LVT in my past posts for you guys to know where I stand there. A similar idea which would also be good would be a green tax shift, which would essentially incorporate societal cost into the cost of products, thus encouraging beneficial consumption while penalizing harmful consumption.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051466 - 04/13/05 06:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Take on responsibility for their own future?????? How fascist. How how how neanderthal. Holy shit, if people had to act as if there were consequences for their actions, why, they might have to, eeeeee, change their behaviour. Oh no we can't have that. We must have millions upon millions of people feeling free to fuck up their lives beyond repair. That is where creativity comes from. Creating wonderful, vital graffiti and and hairdos and tattoos and piercings.
You had to respect the original punks. They knew they were cutting themselves out and off and didn't care and didn't whine. They asked for no quarter and wouldn't have taken it if offered.
Get your head out of your ass (general referent) and get to work. It really does work. Whining gets you nowhere. Play or drop out, it don't matter to me. There are far too many people who think they are "victims of circumstance" and are owed something.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051578 - 04/13/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Heh, I work ten hours a day in medical research and I had $0 taxable income last year because I am poor. I would hardly call my return welfare and I do believe I contribute just as much to society as an investment banker...only I will never have the opportunity to use an investment banker's services but Im sure he will someday use mine.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Tax Time [Re: Catalysis]
    #4051888 - 04/13/05 09:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Why do some of you have such a big problem with people contributing to the society in which they live no matter what their status? It seems to me that you would want just those that make the most money and are the most succesful (and no money is not necesarily success) should carry most of the burden of soceity.

How is it that you want to say that people who have earned a great deal of money have been lucky or have some kind of advantage. Those people simply have worked hard and used their creativity to find a profitable niche. Anyone with a strong work ethic and the drive to succeed will in this country. It is the lazy who never succeed and then expect the government to take care of them.

Looking briefly at the land value tax it looks like only land owners will bear the tax burden in this country while it will be the poorer portion of the population taking advantage of the extra benefits that the government hands out. This would be ok if we get rid of extra government programs like welfare and government social security, but i don't think many people will go for that.


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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051893 - 04/13/05 09:03 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

This man seems angry. The government taxed my income more than they should have, therefore I got MY money back. What a nutjob.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
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Re: Tax Time [Re: DNKYD]
    #4051905 - 04/13/05 09:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

But did you take the other refundable tax credits? because then at some point you end up taking back more money than you put in. and that is stealing from someone else who paid more to the government simply because he made more and then the government is not giving it back to the rightful owner.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4051940 - 04/13/05 09:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It is the lazy who never succeed and then expect the government to take care of them.




See, thats what I take offense to. I am going to graduate school for my PhD. Please explain how I am more lazy than someone who finds a "niche" to make money? I choose to contribute to society, not take from it. Yet i am labeled a lazy ass who is on welfare (my tax return). Fuck that.

I am conservative and a proponent of tax restructuring and social security reform. It is the lame arguments in this thread that I disagree with.

Whenever people go to great lengths to justify political opinions, they always end up looking bad even if they are right.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Tax Time [Re: badchad]
    #4052017 - 04/13/05 09:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Seems to be written by someone in the highest tax bracket.

To function efficiently, societies must have some type of resource reallocation. If you make more money, you pay more money. Tax brackets are based on a person's ability to pay. To those in the highest tax bracket, this seems to be a foreign concept. Throughout my life, I stand a good chance of making the highest tax bracket which is approximately $300K. When this happens I won't have any gripes about paying my taxes.




Well, I'm sure we're all very impressed with how impressed you are with yourself
Quote:


This article displays the elitest ideals that often come with money as exemplified by the paragraph:

"The top 1% of income earners, those who earn about 18% of all income, but who pay 38% of all federal income taxes. These are the people who drive our economy through their creative abilities. They're the ones who invest in old businesses and begin new ones. They are called "boss" by about 80% of U.S. workers, and they're being rode hard and put up wet by our current tax system."

The reality is that these individuals are usually the benefits of a family lineage of money. You need money to make money, and most have simply inherited their assests, or lived a life which makes privy to advantages others might not necesarily have. While the story of hard work leading to millions is the american dream, it is hardly representative of the upper class. Its not hard to become a millionaire when theres someone there to guide you every step of the way.





Most of the people paying the 38% tax are individual owners of successful small businesses. The truly wealthy and inheritors pay capital gains taxes, which are less, ostensibly to spur investment. It's true that it is not hard to get rich when you start rich. Very impressive insight.

Quote:


What this individual fails to realize is that in order to be called "boss" one needs to have workers. The elitest, ultra-rich "boss" has become that way because all the free-loading strains on the system make him that way.



No. Most of them have gotten that way because they are better at what they do than others and have a better idea and more balls. All men created equal is a legal principle, not an actual fact. Luck also factors in. But I thought you were going to be one of the elite. Surely on merit.
Quote:


These elitists don't drive and support the economy, the working class does. What they fail to realize is that if we don't tax and redistribute some money back to those that need it, the middle class will eventually fall out and disappear. When this happens, and there is no longer a "working, middle class" who is going to be left to call them "boss"?




Elitists??? No the only elitists are in academia or journalism. Business people work and work hard and work long and work smart. Those who can't do, teach and criticise. But, you will soon be joining the ranks of the elite yourself, so you'll know. Workers driving the economy? No, I don't think so. For whatever reason they opted for security, which is fine and admirable. But they are most definitely not the engine of our economy.


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: Tax Time [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4052080 - 04/13/05 09:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Elitists??? No the only elitists are in academia or journalism. Business people work and work hard and work long and work smart. Those who can't do, teach and criticise. But, you will soon be joining the ranks of the elite yourself, so you'll know. Workers driving the economy? No, I don't think so. For whatever reason they opted for security, which is fine and admirable. But they are most definitely not the engine of our economy.




Dude, not everyone has the opportunity to be in the top 1% of income earners as this article implies. In fact, 99% of people don't have that opportunity to be exact. I guess we all just "rode the short bus to school" lol. I wish I could have rode the short bus to Harvard but that wasn't on the route.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4052112 - 04/13/05 10:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

snoopaloop53 said:
Why do some of you have such a big problem with people contributing to the society in which they live no matter what their status? It seems to me that you would want just those that make the most money and are the most succesful (and no money is not necesarily success) should carry most of the burden of soceity.



I'm all for letting people keep their money if they earn it. My problem with the income tax is that it doesn't distinguish between earned and unearned income.

Quote:

How is it that you want to say that people who have earned a great deal of money have been lucky or have some kind of advantage. Those people simply have worked hard and used their creativity to find a profitable niche. Anyone with a strong work ethic and the drive to succeed will in this country. It is the lazy who never succeed and then expect the government to take care of them.



Not necessarily. There's a whole buttload of regulations and bad policy decisions in this country that keep people out of work or keep their wages low. They're not all just a bunch of social parasites. It's this kind of filth that gives fiscal conservatism and tax reform a bad name.

Quote:

Looking briefly at the land value tax it looks like only land owners will bear the tax burden in this country while it will be the poorer portion of the population taking advantage of the extra benefits that the government hands out. This would be ok if we get rid of extra government programs like welfare and government social security, but i don't think many people will go for that.



I've discussed this topic ad-nauseum, so I won't try to derail this thread with it, but you are mistaken. You might want to read this thread I made a while back, and then get back to me about it.


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Edited by Paradigm (04/13/05 10:12 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4052125 - 04/13/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

snoopaloop53 said:
But did you take the other refundable tax credits? because then at some point you end up taking back more money than you put in. and that is stealing from someone else who paid more to the government simply because he made more and then the government is not giving it back to the rightful owner.



Again, you are making the ridiculous implication that income tax is the only tax by people contribute to government revenue. The poor pay a higher portion of their income in sales tax than the rich do. Tax credits are meant to offset this. And if you consider the fact that corporate income taxes are passed on to the consumer, then this compensation isn't enough.


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
Loc: PNW
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Re: Tax Time [Re: Silversoul]
    #4052278 - 04/13/05 10:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Workers driving the economy? No, I don't think so.




The combination of the workers' and their boss' hard work is what drives the economy, not one or the other. If one group stops working, can the other then drive the economy? How about all us commoners put it to the test and not go to our jobs tomorrow, and watch the economy crash because there are no workers at their jobs to drive the economy.

What ridiculous world of black vs. white do you live in?


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Tax Time [Re: SWEDEN]
    #4052343 - 04/13/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think everyone should be paying taxes according to what they use, so if a poor person is using many of the government programs they should be paying for them. If you don't need many services you shouldn't have to pay a buttload of money just because you have been successful at a job that compensates you well.

"There's a whole buttload of regulations and bad policy decisions in this country that keep people out of work or keep their wages low." Well those aren't the people that are really trying to break out on there own. You can't tell me that if someone really wants to live well (comforatably) that there is anything in this country truly stopping them except for how much effort they put out.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Tax Time [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #4052403 - 04/13/05 11:30 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I think everyone should be paying taxes according to what they use, so if a poor person is using many of the government programs they should be paying for them. If you don't need many services you shouldn't have to pay a buttload of money just because you have been successful at a job that compensates you well.



What about all the government services the rich use? Like our military, to protect their financial interests abroad? Or pork-barrel budgets full of subsidies and special deals for their business? Or monopoly grants? Or, like, political influence beyond what that bottom 50% could even dream of?

Quote:

"There's a whole buttload of regulations and bad policy decisions in this country that keep people out of work or keep their wages low." Well those aren't the people that are really trying to break out on there own. You can't tell me that if someone really wants to live well (comforatably) that there is anything in this country truly stopping them except for how much effort they put out.



Weak. After the government throws all these stumbling blocks in their way, you call them lazy for not getting up? Theoretically, any starving Indian peasant can make it to the top with enough effort. That doesn't mean the odds against him aren't stacked sky-high. Are the Tsunami victims a bunch of lazy freeloaders? You can't tell me that if they really wanted to get back on their feet that they couldn't do it with enough effort.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Tax Time [Re: Silversoul]
    #4053747 - 04/14/05 10:00 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:




Weak. After the government throws all these stumbling blocks in their way, you call them lazy for not getting up? Theoretically, any starving Indian peasant can make it to the top with enough effort. That doesn't mean the odds against him aren't stacked sky-high. Are the Tsunami victims a bunch of lazy freeloaders? You can't tell me that if they really wanted to get back on their feet that they couldn't do it with enough effort.




That is exactly what I'm saying, that if someone wants to be successful then they will get over those "stumbling blocks" they will learn to avoid them and then they will go on to be successful. Sure maybe the odds are not in their favor but they are just odds, not the final end all be all. No the Tsunami victims aren't a bunch of freeloaders they are a special circumstance, people too lazy to find a job in this country aren't. And yes those people could get back on their feet with some effort, but they already know hard work and aren't scared of it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Tax Time [Re: SWEDEN]
    #4055183 - 04/14/05 04:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SWEDEN said:
Quote:

Workers driving the economy? No, I don't think so.




The combination of the workers' and their boss' hard work is what drives the economy, not one or the other. If one group stops working, can the other then drive the economy? How about all us commoners put it to the test and not go to our jobs tomorrow, and watch the economy crash because there are no workers at their jobs to drive the economy.

What ridiculous world of black vs. white do you live in?




What ridiculous world of incomprehension do you come from where interchangable and easily replaceable workers can be conceived of as driving anything. I have no lack of respect for workers who work. I just realize that they don't drive anything. They're there for the ride. They don't lead. They are directed. Thus, clearly, there are others who do the driving. Small business owners and entrepeneurs who take risks for innovation and profit, these are the drivers. "Workers of the World Unite!" Yeah sure. There will always be scabs. Can you say "Air Traffic Controller." At best, the proles are the passengers. Sometimes, as in the auto unions in the seventies, they are the brakes.

You seem to misunderstand the difference between driving the bus and riding the bus. Without someone in the driver's seat the bus don't go and nobody can do anything about it from the rear. Another dichotomy that you might have trouble with is follow/lead. Without followers, sure, leaders are pointless. That doesn't make the followers leaders. It just makes them directionless. The rarer commodity is ALWAYS more valuable.


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
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Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Tax Time [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4055265 - 04/14/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

without a good salesman, who is going to sell Mr. Ford's trucks?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Tax Time [Re: SWEDEN]
    #4055318 - 04/14/05 05:26 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Salesmen compete only against each other. I only need a salesman because the guy down the street has a salesman. They are useful but if they were all eliminated nobody would miss them. Similar situation for lawyers. Perhaps some are necessary but they are self- replicating and the more you have the more you need.


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