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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Discovery vs. invention
    #337702 - 06/08/01 10:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If discovering is an act of understanding or observing some property or object external to us...
If invention is an act of putting forward into the external world of an object whose source of origin is ourselves...

then...

When we write a good poem, do we discover it or invent it?
When we find proof for mathematical theorem, do we discover it or invent it?
What about our dreams?
What about the rest of what we see, do and feel?



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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Discovery vs. invention [Re: gribochek]
    #337784 - 06/08/01 01:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Fuck, I read this, came out like tu-pac outta the boxing, sweated blood, tried to give a brother some cred, thought it would be an easy number...these are good, good questions...
heres my sorry zopiclone-induced response:
a) we DISCOVER good poetry because in this case the "act" of understanding presumes an emotional attachment/reaction
to the text, i.e. the symbolism in any given piece of literature reminds us of something we wish we could express ourselves.
b) we never find "proof" for a theorum...this is not possible. Rather a potentially significant mathematical theorum must be DISCOVERED because it rests on the shoulders of whichever theorum came before it, i.e., induction is what matters here...we have no room to feel "good" or "bad" about it...
c) and d) are down to the individual, for we niether invent nor discover these, and are rarely in control of them anyway.

Well thought-out questions, gribochek...funny how the simplest queries are frequently the most difficult to answer!



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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Discovery vs. invention [Re: Pynchon]
    #337799 - 06/08/01 02:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Pynch, sweating blood about these is about as useful as trying to lift your shadow from the ground... But just to cause you some more brain damage (in future bad trips) here is a response.

Poetry -- does poetry EXIST until you write it? Where is it? Would poetry exist if language didn't? Remember, discovery assumes prior existence.


Proof, theorem, palyndrome, doesn't matter. At some point a mathematically-sound construct becomes known to us. If, like you say we discover it, then where did it exist before we did?

c & d -- something we are not in control of would have to be discovered, not invented, right? Notice how this relates to my other freedom of will thread? Fine, suppose we discover reality outside of ourself (the breasts of that gorgeous blond in the window opposit ours, for example), do we discover our dreams? But although we aren't in control of them (most of us at least) don't they exist within us? If, then, we can discover something that exists inside of us, then who is discovering?

Have fun.




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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Discovery vs. invention [Re: gribochek]
    #338117 - 06/11/01 07:02 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

this relates to something quantum physicists have been wondering about for a while: do all these various subatomic particles being discovered these days exist before we invent them? remember that all these "particles" are really "theories of particles" the effects of which can sometimes be observed although the particles themselves (whether they exist or not) cannot actually be observed directly.

so did electrons exist before we invented them? or did we really discover them? is an electron a particle or a field? is it really solid or does it just "tend to exist" within an area impossible to define?



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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Discovery vs. invention [Re: Traveller]
    #338198 - 06/11/01 09:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly, Traveller. Yet, why go as far as electrons? Same applies to, say, your own eyes. Have you ever seen your own eyes? In a mirror you say, but isn't the reflection the effect of your eyes in the same way electro-magnetism is the effect of electrons? (Check out www.headless.org for some hillarious-yet-interesting going-over-the-top with this one).

So, do you discover your own eyes or invent your own eyes?



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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
sun child
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,555
Re: Discovery vs. invention [Re: gribochek]
    #22321491 - 10/02/15 12:24 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

when i write a poem, i found i learn a lot out of it by reading it - consider this self-learning. .
later i read the same by shantideva.
come back soon gribochek.

or be well always. :smile:


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
Starhouse - main
Time Traveler's Guide


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