to everyone:
firstly, i'd like to say i appreciate the response this thread has drawn. i believe most of it is wonderfully considered and valuable to the discussion.
before i post my return thoughts, i want to just clarify that i didn't mean my post as any sort of attention-mongering nihilistic nay-saying whistle-blowing. reading it over i can see how it might be read that way, so i apologize if it came off that way to any of you.
i know the four horsemen talk and whatnot might sound like me maybe trying to scare everyone with booegyman talk. but that was not my intention..
to summarize my original intention then: i raise the question (maybe now without all the drug-talk and "doomsday" bru-ha-ha-ha):
has anyone considered that like every other civilization before us, ours will inevitably come to a conclusion of sorts? if so, what are you thoughts about that? will it happen? MUST it happen? should it happen? is there anything that can be done so it won't happen?
trendal:
"I've chosen to be cautious from both angles: prepare myself quietly for a collapse of civilization, while still working to keep my life in THIS society (though, as the days pass, I lean more and more into preparation)."
that is a beautiful and insightful position. it was one i was hoping i would see raised, thank you.
you have taken the position to be aware and honest in your appraisal of the situation, but not panicked and desperate. this will allow you better to make the right decisions. bravo!
gettinjiggywithit:
i very much liked your synopsis of the "three days of darkness" -- good analogy for understanding there's sometimes some "necessary evil" to work through and come to terms with before the greater good can be understood and experienced.
or as the saying "it can't rain all the time" goes, it works the other way around -- it can't be sunny all the time either..
you are right that i posted this thread because of a "mess" i am in the exact moment of seeing, trying to make sense of, and (hopefully) eventually come to understand / accept it.
i believe you when you say you have done this yourself already because i see the wisdom of someone who has in your words.
deff:
i appreciate your position that we often make more importance out of things (especially ourselves) when perhaps in reality we are not actually that important or even that significant (much like an art in a very big ocean).
it is humbling and healthy to realize this. "having perspective" certainly emcompasses knowing your realistic place within a greater whole -- especially when you aren't the top of the ladder, but otherwise might think you are.
however.
that's not to be said that there are no such things as important goals for one's self.
perhaps it is worthy and important goal to work toward understanding just how insignificant one really is? then to work on getting used to the idea. then finally to come to terms with it...
it sounds as though you've got a sense of that already, which is great.
my caution is simply that a conclusion like, "in the end, we're all nothing much" may become a crutch that could support apathy toward having, practicing and achieving goals within your own life. in other words, it could be an excuse not to try.
in the end our bodies die and we may very well just rot. and that is fine! but in the meantime, perhaps there is still some work to be done?
gettinjiggywithit's forward:
there are some wonderful ideas contained within this, thank you so very much for sharing it!
i very much appreciate the implication that "the end" is a programmed idea of self-destruction. i would tend to agree with this. while just saying "i believe i can fly!!" doesn't necessarily mean you can actually fly, there IS something to be said for the power of self-fulfilling biases, and the power of the imagination to eventually manifest itself as reality.
i realize that sounds really hokey stated like that, so lemmie try again:
the author Robert Anton Wilson has a great idea that goes, "What the Thinker thinks, the Provers proves". there is another idea (not sure who to credit.. Leary?) that states, "Reality exists first in the imagination, then in will, then in reality"
again, that's part New Age mumbo-jumbo, but trim the fat on it and you have a solid idea: you can't consciously DO something unless you can conceptulize of it first. so in that sense, "imagining" something really IS the first step to making it actually happen.
the core message of the gettinjiggywithit's forward seems to be that imagining the idea of "the end" is the first step in bringing it about:
"they generate certain emotions and feelings that are designed to trigger mass despair and eventually, mass "suicide" as it were, as you as humans get ready to run your final "Armageddon scenarios"."
... so in short, we must each learn to not "feed" this self-defeating termination program, and as a result, take the first step in helping it NOT happen for real. your efforts instead 'tip the scales' back the other way and "vote for continuation" <-- great term for it.
in fairness, the end statements may be hard to swallow for some. i myself find them potentially acceptable, but also quite sugary... something i'd rather avoid in searching for my own motivation to make the change.
my recommendation in response is, don't concern yourself with the "good news" at the end, good or not. concern yourself with getting there first.
ld50negative1:
i have felt pulled recently to delve into topics that normally i would not, such as the Bible. my motivation seems not to be to find an 'answer' but more to just 'know the field' better for myself, so that i can be a bit more sensible in navigating through what more and more feels like choppy waters.
your encouragement is appreciated.
i also appreciate that it seems you have certainly given some consideration to the rather alarming fact that 'sumin's comin'. you are definitely aware that the writing's on the wall, the rent is up, the skies are stormy, etc... i think this awareness is very important -- i myself posted precisely because i, too, am wrestling with this newfound realization that, damn, the world is not as lollypops and bubblegum peachy-keen as i'd previously taken it for granted to be.
however.
in lui of what i just commented on above with gettinjiggywithit's forward, the question of a 'self-defeating attitude' has been put on the table.
(and sorry to single you out for this!)
but while very real problems may very well be on the horizon, how much of the following statements are coloured furthermore with a self-terminating bias?
-"Now what I don't understand is the arrogance one must have to think that humanity will not end?"
-"We are doomed to either self-destruction or the wrath of God himself."
i agree that self-destruction is on the table. the possibility is real, the probability at this point is probably "likely". no arguement there.
the question is, is being doomed the ONLY option?
if we are in a tail-spin, one option certainly IS to crash.
but is that the ONLY option?
could it be, as the forward proposes, a bit of a self-terminating assumption? (even if that outcome is "very likely")
Mushmonkey:
not to single you out either intentionally, but i was rather enjoying the serious nature of the thread thus far. i think that important topics must be discussed seriously, but discussing seriously is sometimes seen as a drag. even so, i'd hate to see an otherwise deep discussion shanghai'd for a fevered one about Mad Max and guns. can we keep it constructive?
those are my thoughts so far. thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread! for every point you ponder, you may very well be stepping closer to the renewal and change gettinjiggywithit's forward has proposed.
prettyboy.
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