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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3297218 -

I don't think Bin Laden understands America as well as he thinks.

He knows Spain like the back of his hand though.


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3297529 -

Quite so. If he thinks he can scare enough of us into voting for the great appeaser he is very much mistaken. I think the American mindset is a total mystery to him. If he could've done something he probably would have instead of releasing a blustery video


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3297558 -

I'm sad to say he has figured out the mindset of quite a few Americans, but fortunately not enough.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3300652 -

If he thinks he can scare enough of us into voting for the great appeaser he is very much mistaken

Bush has been the greatest recruiting seargent Bin Laden could have imagined in his wildest dreams. The last thing he needs is Bush out of office. Bush keeps killing civilians in Iraq and Bin Laden's position gets stronger and safer.

I think the American mindset is a total mystery to him

Sounds like he understands it better than you think. His goal is 4 more years. Bait and switch.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #3303677 -

Alex123 writes:

Bush has been the greatest recruiting seargent Bin Laden could have imagined in his wildest dreams.

Uh huh. And we all know that all military commanders with a lick of a sense prefer having all their trained and loyal old schoolers who have been with them for a few decades rounded up and imprisoned or shot -- because hey; they can now more easily recruit wet behind the ears. Who could resist such a trade-off?

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/33063.htm


Bush keeps killing civilians in Iraq and Bin Laden's position gets stronger and safer.

Which civilians might those be?

Anyone who seriously believes (as opposed to just trolling) bin Laden prefers to have Bush in office rather than Kerry is beyond the reach of rational discourse.


pinky


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3303749 -

Quote:
Bush keeps killing civilians in Iraq and Bin Laden's position gets stronger and safer.

Which civilians might those be?




Are you now denyig that any civillians have died during operation bullshit? Or are you placing the blame solely at Saddam's door again?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3304058 -


Anyone who seriously believes (as opposed to just trolling) bin
Laden prefers to have Bush in office rather than Kerry is beyond the
reach of rational discourse.


Well, he just might.

In my opinion, Bin Laden has two possible desires:

1. Kick all American and Israeli influences out of the Middle
East. The Muslim world can then be left alone.

2. Provoke an all out war with the West(even if we were to
completely withdraw all influence and meddling from the Middle
East). He would want this because he sees Western culture as
inherently evil and beyond redemption. He sees Islamic culture
as the only viable lifestyle for EVERYONE, and he feels as if
Islam should culturally and politically take over the world.

If Bin Laden believes in #1, whether Bush or Kerry gets in won't
much matter to him. Kerry will still probably give Israel and
certain corrupt Arab regimes money and weapons. Kerry also will
not just walk away from Iraq, so American troops will not only
remain in Iraq, but also all of the other Middle Eastern countries
we are in(Kuwait, Bahrain, etc..). It is also reasonable to
assume that Kerry will continue the pursuit of Al Qaeda(to do
otherwise would be political suicide).

If Bin Laden wants #2, Bush is his dream come true. Here we have a
president that has caused even more enmity in the Arab world than
usual. Support for America and its policies went from being low
to extremely low. By having such a demonized president in office,
it is easier to whip up Arab hatred and inspire Muslims to
hate the West even more...which will help bring about the "showdown"
with the West.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3304224 -

Quote:
Here we have a
president that has caused even more enmity in the Arab world than
usual. Support for America and its policies went from being low
to extremely low. By having such a demonized president in office,
it is easier to whip up Arab hatred and inspire Muslims to
hate the West even more...which will help bring about the "showdown"
with the West.



Sounds like you're on the ball Randall.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3304325 -

Scenario 2) is the one bin Laden is pursuing. Why on earth you believe having Bush in power helps ObL achieve the goal of scenario 2 is a mystery to me.

Let's examine this more closely. You said:

Here we have a president that has caused even more enmity in the Arab world than usual.

Presumably you believe he has done this by invading Afghanistan and Iraq. Yet there was little outcry (other than the usual meaningless and impotent ululations in the Arab press) from the "Arab Street" over the invasion of Afghanistan. Certainly the level of Afghani "insurgency" is a fraction what it is in Iraq. Therefore you must be referring to the deposing of Hussein by force.

Yet we are repeatedly lectured by the chattering classes that there couldn't possibly have been a link between Al Qaeda and Hussein because Hussein was a Muslim in name only -- a secular dictator so godless that bin Laden allegedly rebuffed Hussein's offers of assistance.

Why are there so many problems in Iraq but so few problems in Afghanistan, where a real Islamic theocracy was deposed -- where bin Laden enjoyed the safe haven provided by religious "leaders" who shared his brand of religious fanaticism -- if his goal is to impose a worldwide Islamic Caliphate?

By having such a demonized president in office, it is easier to whip up Arab hatred and inspire Muslims to hate the West even more...

All of which (if true) means absolutely nothing. Arabs are renowned talkers. That's part of the reason they are so poorly off today compared to Western society -- they talk rather than do.

Emotions mean nothing -- what counts are actions.

... which will help bring about the "showdown" with the West.

Using who? Raw recruits with no training? Without a cadre of trained, loyal, and experienced staff, the thousands of potential 'splodeydopes are more of a liability than an asset. In his latest video, ObL was bemoaning the loss of so much of his command structure. He was crying over how badly the Americans had worked Al Qaeda over. Do you really think he wants to see more of that?

pinky


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3304337 -

Quote:
Arabs are renowned talkers. That's part of the reason they are so poorly off today compared to Western society -- they talk rather than do.



:lol: yeah, that's the reason :lol:

Do you think OBL would be out to get America so much if Bush hadn't got rid of Saddam?

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304373 -

Quote:
Do you think OBL would be out to get America so much if Bush hadn't got rid of Saddam?


Gee, that's a toughie. Had Bush gotten rid of Hussein (who by the way bin Laden would never have co-operated with, because he isn't a real Muslim) when the first world WTC attack occurred in 1993? When the embassies in Africa were bombed? When the USS Cole was attacked? When the second WTC attack occurred?

Why, no, he hadn't.


pinky


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3304390 -

The thing is you have no basis for comparison. For all you know, if Saddam was deposed before all these events, more would have happened. You have no idea whether that is true or not.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3304399 -

Quote:
Yet we are repeatedly lectured by the chattering classes that there couldn't possibly have been a link between Al Qaeda and Hussein because Hussein was a Muslim in name only -- a secular dictator so godless that bin Laden allegedly rebuffed Hussein's offers of assistance.



You must be aware that Rumsfeld himself acknowledges that there was no good evidence of such a link?

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: deafpanda]
    #3304404 -

You'd think so wouldnt you! Pinky seems to have a bit of a blind spot sometimes!!!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3304499 -

Why on earth you believe having Bush in power helps ObL achieve the goal of scenario 2 is a mystery to me.

He explained it quite clearly.

Certainly the level of Afghani "insurgency" is a fraction what it is in Iraq.

Completly different situation. The nightmarish Northern Alliance warlords control the bulk of the country. The "insurgents" are already in control.

Yet we are repeatedly lectured by the chattering classes

And the CIA...and every government commission that's looked into it..

Why are there so many problems in Iraq but so few problems in Afghanistan

Because power is already in the hands of a bunch of vicious warlords? I don't suppose that's a "problem" to you is it.

Arabs are renowned talkers.

You don't do so bad yourself.

That's part of the reason they are so poorly off today compared to Western society -- they talk rather than do.

Did you just make this one up off the top of your head as you typed?

Without a cadre of trained, loyal, and experienced staff

You display a staggering ignorance of how terrorists work. A cadre of loyal, trained loyal staff hiding in a cave with you is no asset whatsoever. You must have general support among the population you operate in to survive. That's why every revolutionary movement with a small, loyal trained staff and no support among the population fails.

Invading Iraq has created more support for Bin Laden that him and a few guys hiding in a cave could ever have dreamed of.

He was crying over how badly the Americans had worked Al Qaeda over

Link?

Do you really think he wants to see more of that?

I think he's conned you good.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Phred]
    #3305168 -


Scenario 2) is the one bin Laden is pursuing. Why on earth you
believe having Bush in power helps ObL achieve the goal of scenario
2 is a mystery to me.

Bush wanted Iraq invaded. The vast majority of Arabs did not support
or want this. The notoriously anti-American state-run Arab press
encourages hatred towards America and Israel. By having an
American president who did something that was very unpopular in the
Arab world, you breed even more resentment. Resentment and anger
cause more extreme Muslims to strike out and it causes the general
Muslim population to support them. This translates into power.
Bin Laden needs the anger of the Arab population if he is going to
accomplish what he wants to accomplish. It is in his best interest
to inspire militancy and anger in the Arab population. The bigger
the boogeyman is, the more united and determined a population is
against this boogeyman.


Let's examine this more closely. You said:


Here we have a president that has caused even more enmity in the
Arab world than usual.


Presumably you believe he has done this by invading Afghanistan and
Iraq. Yet there was little outcry (other than the usual meaningless
and impotent ululations in the Arab press) from the "Arab Street"
over the invasion of Afghanistan.

Only Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and some other country (was it the
U.A.E.?) recognized the legitmacy of the Taliban when it was in
power. Bin Laden was obviously operating out of Afghanistan, so
going in there was not seen as too bad.


Certainly the level of Afghani "insurgency" is a fraction what it is
in Iraq. Therefore you must be referring to the deposing of Hussein
by force.

True. The Iraqi insurgency has proven to be more organized,
and deadly.


Why are there so many problems in Iraq but so few problems in
Afghanistan, where a real Islamic theocracy was deposed -- where bin
Laden enjoyed the safe haven provided by religious "leaders" who
shared his brand of religious fanaticism -- if his goal is to impose
a worldwide Islamic Caliphate?

The Iraq war is seen as much less legitimate and justified than the
Afghanistan war. Therefore, the opposition to it is much more
vocal and vociferous.


By having such a demonized president in office, it is easier to whip
up Arab hatred and inspire Muslims to hate the West even more...


All of which (if true) means absolutely nothing. Arabs are renowned
talkers. That's part of the reason they are so poorly off today
compared to Western society -- they talk rather than do.

Daily suicide bombings and convoy ambushes in Iraq are actions.
The first WTC bombing, the African embassy bombings, the USS Cole
bombing, and September 11 were actions. These occurrences are not
and were not conversation.


Emotions mean nothing -- what counts are actions.

But if a large segment of a population is sympathetic to the aims
of a revolutionary....it can greatly aid his cause. How much money
from sympathetic Arabs rolls into Bin Laden's coffers? How much of
that money does he use to try to kill Americans?


... which will help bring about the "showdown" with the West.


Using who? Raw recruits with no training? Without a cadre of
trained, loyal, and experienced staff, the thousands of
potential 'splodeydopes are more of a liability than an asset.

It doesn't take that much skill to aim an RPG at an American
soldier or to strap a bomb to yourself and go flying in pieces into
Allah's arms.


In his latest video, ObL was bemoaning the loss of so much of his
command structure. He was crying over how badly the Americans had
worked Al Qaeda over. Do you really think he wants to see more of
that?

You seem to be insinuating that Kerry will not pursue Al Qaeda as
much as Bush will. Do you have proof of that?

What happens when Israel blows up Hamas operatives? What happens
when a Palestinian blows himself up? Yes, the Palestinan side loses
a few people that are fighting for its cause, but those actions
inspire ten more people to join the cause and take the places of
the fallen.

How much more plainly can I say this? Hatred and anger in a
population can lead to sympathy and support of terrorists. And, the
terrorist movement usually snowballs.

Does that mean I think we should back down from Islamic militants?
Hell no. But, we need to understand where they are coming from.

I stand by my assertion that a leader who is terribly unpopular
with a certain population can inspire some members of that
population to be more aggressive and militant, which will aid
the revolutionary.

However, I admit I don't know what Bin Laden is thinking. He might
want us to be more aggressive, so we piss off the Muslims more, and
he in turn gets more support. He might want Kerry in if he thinks
that the U.S. will be less likely to pursue military action, so that
less Muslims will die. He might feel guilty for pissing of America
so badly that we undertook actions which have resulted in the deaths
of tens of thousands of Muslims. I am merely acknowledging that
it might be in his strategy for him to prefer Bush stay in office.
It also might not be. I don't know what he is thinking.

Edited by RandalFlagg (11/01/04 02:43 PM)

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3343140 -

I'm putting this back up top so you can all see how dishonest Alex is


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3343202 -

Over 99% of Iraqi civilians were killed by the insurgents.


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http://www.yourewelcomeeverybody.com/gallery.php

http://www.grouchymedia.com/


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3346045 -

I'm putting this back up top so you can all see how dishonest Alex is

Can you point out the dishonesty son?

And if you're going to flame at least have the balls to think up one of your own instead of copying a 12 month old one of pinkies. Cheers.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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