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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3292505 -

Sanctions killed 500,000 children.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: GazzBut]
    #3292519 -

No. Iraq had plenty of money from Oil for Food, they could have spent it on feeding the people instead of new palaces, weapons and Jacque Chirac. Saddam Hussein starved his own people by stealing their money for his lifestyle of excess, military, and for bribes to France, Germany, Russia and China to drop sanctions and sell Iraq weapons. The sanctions are not to blame.

At any rate, had there been no sanctions we would have found plenty of WMDs in Iraq.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293072 -

I would suggest you read the full study before commenting more, it is now up at The Lancet's homepage. First rereading the methods, sampling was NOT done by finding 30 random points in Iraq. Second actually read the results, women and children did not make up the majority of violent deaths, men did.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293153 -

There was a figure of 400,000 dead Iraqis under Saddam that Blair was spouting a year or two ago, it was debunked and Blair apologised. It even got in the "dodgy dossier". It seems to still be doing the rounds...

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: deafpanda]
    #3293365 -

Why am I not surprised that you deny Saddam Hussein's attrocitites all the while jumping on some claim that the US killed hundreds of thousands of people? Of course, America MUST be to blame, everybody else must be good because America is always bad! America MUST be to blame for sanctions, America must be to blame for insurgent terrorists killing innocents, but Saddam Hussein definately wasn't a problem.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293369 -

Quote:
Why am I not surprised that you deny Saddam Hussein's attrocitites all the while jumping on some claim that the US killed hundreds of thousands of people?



Probabaly because you are guilty of the exact same thing in reverse.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293376 -

So far there has already been 400,000 people found in the mass graves. 400,000 is the absolute low end.

I'm sorry but this simply isn't true. So far just 5000 people have been found in mass graves. Even Blair has retracted his statements on this in the face of overwhelming evidence.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293377 -

Quote:
Iraq had plenty of money from Oil for Food, they could have spent it on feeding the people instead of new palaces, weapons and Jacque Chirac. Saddam Hussein starved his own people by stealing their money for his lifestyle of excess, military, and for bribes to France, Germany, Russia and China to drop sanctions and sell Iraq weapons. The sanctions are not to blame.




So pre sanctions Iraqs main health problem was child obesity and after sanctions 500,000 children died but of course it was all Saddams fault and not the sanctions - If it wasnt so sick Id almost find you funny.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3293448 -

Now that's just silly. The 400,000 figure has been totally debunked. It is absolutely not true. The Lancet is a peer-reviewed scientific journal. I trust scientific journals more than lies. Personally.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: GazzBut]
    #3293641 -

Quote:
I'm sorry but this simply isn't true. So far just 5000 people have been found in mass graves. 



Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that every body found in a mass grave has to be tagged, photographed and forensically examined to court standards. The remains will eventually be used as evidence in Saddam's trial.

You should also take into account the fact that experienced European investigators are refusing to help the IST.


Quote:
So pre sanctions Iraqs main health problem was child obesity 



So child obesity was Iraq's biggest killer? If not, please elaborate a source would be nice too  :wink:


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

Edited by st0nedphucker (10/29/04 12:25 PM)

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3293940 -

Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that every body found in a mass grave has to be tagged, photographed and forensically examined to court standards

No, it seems more to do with the rumours about mass graves that held "thousands" in reality keep turning out to hold a dozen or so.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Xlea321]
    #3294033 -

Quote:
No, it seems more to do with the rumours about mass graves that held "thousands" in reality keep turning out to hold a dozen or so.


Already 40 mass grave sites have been identified in Iraq, hundreds of bodies have been found at a grave near al-Hatra alone. Certainly a lot more than 'a dozen or so'...

I also feel the need to point out that it was groups such as Human Rights Watch (290,000) that put the figure in the hundreds of thousands range.

I'm not sure what your arguing here Alex, do you honestly believe Saddam Hussein only murdered 5,000 people?


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3294317 -

By that logic the US has killed in 18 months in excess of 20 times the people Saddam killed in 30 years? I'm sorry but that is just plain ridiculous.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3294422 -

Certainly a lot more than 'a dozen or so'...

Read my post again. You're missing the point.

I'm not sure what your arguing here Alex, do you honestly believe Saddam Hussein only murdered 5,000 people?

No, I am stating the fact that 5000 people have been found in mass graves as opposed to divided sky's claim that 400,000 have.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3295089 -

Divided_Sky said:
By that logic the US has killed in 18 months in excess of 20 times the people Saddam killed in 30 years? I'm sorry but that is just plain ridiculous.


Well there IS a war going on in Iraq, many thousands of people die in a war. Hitler was killing hundreds of thousands of Jews a month, for many months and the world had no clue it was happening until very late in the war. You find these high death tolls ridiculous because they media coverge is so sickenly non-existant about what's happening down there, I suggest you start doing your own unbiased research like that that guy in the scientific journal. You have yet to state any legitimate refutes about his scientific methods and conclusions. If you believe he is out right lying, it would have been (or still will be)100% proven that he is by fellow scientists, believe me, they won't let something this huge slip by, and most likely they wouldn't have even publish that paper if they believed his methods were unsound. They thoroughly read your experiment reports and follow strict rules before they even publish, ask any proffessor at university.

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: chodamunky]
    #3296911 -

chodamunky said:
Divided_Sky said:
By that logic the US has killed in 18 months in excess of 20 times the people Saddam killed in 30 years? I'm sorry but that is just plain ridiculous.


Well there IS a war going on in Iraq, many thousands of people die in a war. Hitler was killing hundreds of thousands of Jews a month, for many months and the world had no clue it was happening until very late in the war. You find these high death tolls ridiculous because they media coverge is so sickenly non-existant about what's happening down there, I suggest you start doing your own unbiased research like that that guy in the scientific journal. You have yet to state any legitimate refutes about his scientific methods and conclusions. If you believe he is out right lying, it would have been (or still will be)100% proven that he is by fellow scientists, believe me, they won't let something this huge slip by, and most likely they wouldn't have even publish that paper if they believed his methods were unsound. They thoroughly read your experiment reports and follow strict rules before they even publish, ask any proffessor at university.


For all you non-statisticians out there, check this out for an explanation of the statistical data that was actually presented in the study and contrast that with the crapulous nonsense when partisans use this stuff to make a point. http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/
This study only posits that there is a 95% probability that additional civilian deaths in Iraq range from 8,000 to 194,000. Like he said, it's a dartboard. The guy who did the study isn't lying, per se, he is reporting meaningless results. And the stupid press that WANTS to believe this is once again not questioning the source, or in this case, the actual content. Really, such transparent nonsense that it is hard to believe this is all they can come up with. Has it ever occurred to any of you that if they have to make shit up to support their agenda maybe it is bankrupt?


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: deafpanda]
    #3297016 -

deafpanda said:
Now that's just silly. The 400,000 figure has been totally debunked. It is absolutely not true. The Lancet is a peer-reviewed scientific journal. I trust scientific journals more than lies. Personally.


If you are going to trust scientific journals and the studies in them you are going to have to learn to read them. My mother was diagnosed with lung cancer. They tried a somewhat new protocol that had been in use for only 5 years. They showed her a study that gave a median survival of 3 years. She thought that meant she had 3 years. Obviously, that wasn't what the study said. No one could have had more than a 5 year survival since the protocol wasn't that old. She was very upset until I pointed this out to her. DON'T ASSUME THAT THEY ARE WRITTEN IN PLAIN LANGUAGE. They aren't


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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3297097 -

Hey Zappa, you promised me Bin Laden was dead...whats going on???!  :smirk:


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #3297134 -

Quote:
So child obesity was Iraq's biggest killer? If not, please elaborate a source would be nice too



Where did I say it was Iraq's biggest killer? at least make the effort man!

anyway sources which lead me to believe the child obesity theory at a 70% level of belief:

http://www.commondreams.org/views/102300-103.htm
http://pilger.carlton.com/iraq/impact
http://www.ccmep.org/Newsletter/newsletter4.html
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401a.asp
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/08/article05.shtml
http://vitw.us/library/archives/000120.html


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Always Smi2le

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Re: New Scientist reports findings on civilian deaths in Iraq [Re: GazzBut]
    #3297194 -

GazzBut said:
Hey Zappa, you promised me Bin Laden was dead...whats going on???!  :smirk:


Oh well.  At least we know.  Can't quite figure out why he decided to stick his tongue out now.  This can't help Kerry.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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