Home | Community | Message Board


Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,539
Loc: Portland, OR
Analogies of Consciousness
    #327142 - 05/27/01 05:55 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

*soon-to-be sidewalk bum, college dropout, CJ stands on corner of Spirituality-Philosophy forum with sign: thought for food! hotdog buns accepted! hail eris!* ever notice any analogies for that there Consciousness stuff? I've seen two types -one denotes a kind of space, like Buddhist's "emptiness" or in such expressions as "state of consciousness" or "level of being". The other is that of a river, as in expressions "stream of consciousness" and "stream of thought." topographical and historical, corresponding to the two main dimensions of our experience of reality-space and time.

think of the human life cycle and analogy - the cycle of the day and that of the year. in the diurnal analogy, we think of birth and youth as the sunrise and morning, adulthood as midday, maturity as the afternoon, and aging as the evening of our days. in seasonal metaphor, spring is youth, summer of full adult power and expression, the autumnal maturity of our capacities through midlife, and the "winter of our discontent," of aging and dying.
evidence of linguistics show how our ordinary conceptual system-which governs how we think, talk, act, both consciously and unconsciously is metaphorical in nature (ever notice how the opening of Bob Wilson's _The New Inquisition_ states "Everything which is is metaphor") think of implicit, unconscious metaphors- a metaphor in our culture is the idea that money is liquid - "cash flow" "liquid assets".

Orientational metaphors based on our experience of the up/down dimension of space. happiness "my spirits rose, "I feel down"; consciousness "waking up", "falling asleep"; health and life "he's at the peak of health", "he dropped dead"; control and power "height of power, "being under control; status "high society"; time "upcoming events";morality "high-mindedness", "low character"

expanded consciousness, raising one's level of consciousness, bringing an unconscious complex "up into awareness" "climbing to the top of the holy, mystical mountain, ascending the ladder of evolution.

Edited by CosmicJoke on 05/28/01 02:10 PM.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #327171 - 05/27/01 06:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I see consciousness in a little more of a static way. Picture a frame with a blank canvass. That canvass is consciousness, ready to be stimulated.

nah, I dunno



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,539
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: Kid]
    #327801 - 05/28/01 02:11 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

the uncarved block, that's a topographical metaphor

Repent! Repent! Floss Often!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,539
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #327840 - 05/28/01 02:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

and then there are symbols, which are morely like objects or things, whereas metaphors stand for processes that extend through time. the tree is a symbol of the human being, standing vertically between heaven and earth, linking the upper world of Spirit and the lower world of nature. on the other hand, the growth of the tree from seed to flowering maturity is a metaphor for the growth of the individual, the unfolding of a human life from seed-conception to full creative expression. the path, or road, is a symbol of development of consciousness; traveling on the road is a metaphor for the process of expanding the horizons of awareness.

symbol comes from the Greek roots sym ("together") and ballein ("to throw"). thus, a symbol is a throwing together, a linkage, connecting two disparate elements in our psyche. metaphor comes from meta ("beyond") and pherein ("to carry"). thus, it is a carrying beyond, a transferring of meaning from one domain into another. analogy comes from the Greek analogos ("proportionate"), which in turn is based on ana ("according to") and legein ("to collect" and "to speak"). thus, by analogy we can gather (understand) and speak of a similarity in proportion. a clock is a good example of an analog device: it shows the same proportions and relationships as the passage of the sun in relationship to the horizon.

"The mystic cannot wholly do without symbol and image, inadequate to his vision though they must always be: for his experience must be expressed if it is to be communicated, and its actuality is inexpressible except in some hint or parallel which will stimulate the dormant intuition of the reader." _Mysticism_ by Evelyn Underhill

"There is only one way to help another to an understanding of it. He must be guided and led on by consideration and discussion of the matter through the ways of his own mind, until he reach the point at which 'the numinous' in him perforce begins to stir, to start into life and into consciousness. We can co-operate in this process by bringing before his notice all that can be found in other regions of the mind, already known and familiar, to resemble, or again to afford some special contrast to, the particular experience we wish to elucidate. Then we must add: 'This X of ours is not precisely this experience, but akin to this one and the opposite of that other. Cannot you now realize for yourself what it is?' In other words our X cannot, strictly speaking, be taught, it can only be evoked, awakened in the mind; as everything that comes 'of the spirit' must be awakened." _The Idea of the Holy_ by Rudolf Otto

primordial images... numbers, shapes, colors... song, dance, ritual, movement, gesture

koans, active imagination, dreams, meditation

adsfj;kaklj;dsf1
so much to learn. head is spinning. bye bye.


Repent! Repent! Floss Often!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblethePilgrim_0
Stranger
Registered: 05/11/01
Posts: 19
Loc: Spain
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #327936 - 05/28/01 04:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"thought for food", yeap!
And this is very tasty CJ,
Dimensions (size) of conciousness depends on the complexity and variety of the patterns that compose it.

I don?t know, reading what you said made me think of that. What do you think?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepan
member
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 32
Loc: here
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #328562 - 05/29/01 08:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hail Kalisti!

Metaphor, symbols, colours, dance, ritual, ORDER.

Chaos (primordial uncarved block).

Find an order, find a consciousness?
Consciousness? Order? Order? Consciousness?
See the third law of thermodynamics - entrophy. All is entrophy, all is, except here we are in a little pocket of negative entrophy, an ordering principle (which in effect ultimately creates more chaos.), We try to order everything, as we our own DNA has ordered ourselves, and create symbols etc. Our conciousness is merely an extension of our own life blood, our BEING, ORDER. That's another view for the stack anyhoo.

So is that consciousness then? Order? Negative entrophy? Whell that's the physical science's interpretation (each field will express the same thing in different words (different consciousness) won't it. Whose right? Whose wrong? Is there a right? Is there a wrong? Is there an energy vibration that we should strive for? A consciousness that is more in HARMONY?
A friend of mine pointed out that while we are in a pocket of negative entrophy while we humans exist ordering everything in an other wise random chaotic event we actually create more chaos, use up more energy, create more entropy by TRYING to create order, taking each ACTion, even THOUghts use energy up, create, accelerate entrophy, quickening the end of the universe....(?). So is there a way of slowing down our destructive attempts at order? Is there a balance to strive for? ORDER in balance with CHAOS? Equilibrium where negetive entrophy becomes sustainable? Or is that physically inpossible.... Wouuld it happen when the universe becomes self consc.... See Tielhard de Chardin for that line of thought....

But where was I?? Hmmm Ah, yes, What is consciousness?
It seems all tied in. I mean, you start looking at what consciousness is then you are looking at what you looked at, all the different interpretations, it's LIKE this or is BEST described like that. But ain't ya gettin whole stuck in the loop? The tongue cannot taste itself loop? Where's the description gonna come from that can tie it all together?
Solutions, solutions, definitians... all more energy being used up, trying to come to a solutiojn as to WHAT CHAOS ACTUALLY IS, HOW IS IT ORDERED????
Oh, by the way I aint knocking the qwestion (or the loved questioner) it is all damn interesting. Just being the other side of the coin.
Kalisti? Focus on the change? May be. Might be. May fly.

It's all coming out all shock eye and my attempts at all this self expression shlock get a-thwarted with all this noon day sun.
Loved the word history (etemology?)

That Underhill quote... replace the word mystic with Physicist and it makes sense still to THAT field. Seems a redundant point by the kind lady, saying nothing about mysticism per se - maybe I miss the point though.... (Not unheard of)

And then that Otto quote is a nice un, ohh baby. Nice. Just because it's that whole Melon story ain't it. The man who goes a travelling to the far off land and he comes to a strange place and enters a field where people are a running and a screaming away from "A terrible monster", he investigates. It's a melon. He goes to them. Shows them and cuts up the melon in front of them and eats it. And so then they're more frightened of him than they were of the melon and killl him.
The next traveller along sees what happens, sees the people running a-screaming, but this guy he does nothing. Becomes their friend, part of the community and wins their trust. and slowly shows them bit by bit there's nothing to a frighten in Melons. It's a case of surrounding them with little clues as to the truth and then hoping they'll cop on and realise a bit of truth.... That's all you can do. Hope the self will engage.

(Epilogue: The whole viillage become addicted to melons and they all die of mal nutrition - a lack of B vitamins. C'est la vie)
But it's a good quote, fill the awareness surrond it with the tools to make itself some butter for the bread of life (sour milk, a chrn, a buxom milk maid etc) and hope the consciousness puts in the effort to read the manual itself.
Truth cannot be taught, it can only be awakened, aye.

Shame.

Sham.

Shambollic concequeces of that truth.

Hey cj, gooday, nice play, meet another may-day.
Pan






Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #328596 - 05/29/01 09:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

On the other hand, "tied up" and "tied down" mean pretty much the same thing in the metaphorical sense...maybe a statement on the directionlessness implicit in the metaphor...after all, if you're tied up with something/one or tied down to something/one, aren't you just "going through the motions" or "going around in circles"?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,539
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: pan]
    #328701 - 05/29/01 01:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

In the beginning there was VOID, who had two daughters; one (the smaller) was that of BEING, named ERIS, and one (the larger) was of NON- BEING, named ANERIS. (To this day, the fundamental truth that Aneris is the larger is apparent to all who compare the great number of things that do not exist with the comparatively small number of things that do exist.)
Eris had been born pregnant, and after 55 years (Goddesses have an unusually long gestation period-- longer even than elephants), Her pregnancy bore the fruits of many things. These things were composed of the Five Basic Elements, SWEET, BOOM, PUNGENT, PRICKLE, and ORANGE. Aneris, however, had been created sterile. When she saw Eris enjoying Herself so greatly with all of the existent things She had borne, Aneris became jealous and finally one day she stole some existent things and changed them into non- existent things and claimed them as her own children. This deeply hurt Eris, who felt that Her sister was unjust (being so much larger anyway) to deny Her her small joy. And so She made herself swell again to
bear more things. And She swore that no matter how many of her begotten that Aneris would steal, She would beget more.
And, in return, Aneris swore that no matter how many existent things Eris brought forth, she would eventually find them and turn them into non-existent things for her own. (And to this day, things appear and disappear in this very manner.)
At first, the things brought forth by Eris were in a state of chaos and went in every which way, but by the by She began playing with them and ordered some of them just to see what would happen. Some pretty things arose from this play and for the next five zillion years She amused Herself by creating order. And so She grouped some things with others and some groups with others, and big groups with little groups, and all combinations until She had many grand schemes which delighted Her.
Engrossed in establishing order, She finally one day noticed disorder (previously not apparent because everything was chaos). There were many ways in which chaos was ordered and many ways in which it was not.
"Hah," She thought, "Here shall be a new game."
And She taught order and disorder to play with each other in contest games, and to take turns amusing each other. She named the side of disorder after Herself, "ERISTIC" because Being is anarchic. And then, in a mood of sympathy for Her lonely sister, She named the other side "ANERISTIC" which flattered Aneris and smoothed the friction a little that was between them.
Now all of this time, Void was somewhat disturbed. He felt unsatisfied for he had created only physical existence and physical non- existence, and had neglected the spiritual. As he contemplated this, a great Quiet was caused and he went into a state of Deep Sleep which lasted for 5 eras. At the end of this ordeal, he begat a brother to Eris and Aneris, that of SPIRITUALITY, who had no name at all.
When the sisters heard this, they both confronted Void and pleaded that he not forget them, his First Born. And so Void decreed thus: That this brother, having no form, was to reside with Aneris in Non-Being and then to leave her and, so that he might play with order and disorder, reside with Eris in Being. But Eris became filled with sorrow when She heard this and then began to weep.
"Why are you despondent?" demanded Void, "Your new brother will have his share with you." "But Father, Aneris and I have been arguing, and she will take him from me when she discovers him, and cause him to return to Non- Being." "I see,"replied Void, "Then I decree the following: "When your brother leaves the residence of Being, he shall not reside again in Non-Being, but shall return to Me, Void, from
whence he came. You girls may bicker as you wish, but My son is your Brother and We are all of Myself."
And so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and disorder them, and so it shall be that non-existence shall take us back from existence and that nameless spirituality shall return to Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.
"Everything is true - Everything is permissible!" -><-
-Hassan i Sabbah

Repent! Repent! Floss Often!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 1,947
Loc: Malice, Tx
Last seen: 4 years, 22 days
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #329404 - 05/30/01 03:53 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Woah, y'know sometimes you just gotta simplify man, it's nice being philosophical(I don't care if that's how you spell it) but it's times like this that * I * need to stop thinking, but that's just me.


I'm about to say THE single most profound thing you will ever hear in your life.

I like Dr. Pepper, I think I'll get one now, oh wait this one's not empty yet... HELL FUCKIN' YEAH I'M THE LUCKIEST MAN IN THE WORLD!!!
oh shit that damn Weezer video is on, "Hashpipe" but of course Mtv has BASTARDIZED it to "H***Pipe", I hate Weezer and all (they're a bunch of wusses), but they don't need to sensor the fuckin' word Hash, eventually kids are gonna hear "that word" (forshame!) at least they should hear it from an idol and not a stupid ass health book that refers to "Hash" as "Street slang used among addicts to refer to the illegal substance Hashish" DAMN I'M WAAAAAAAAAY off topic, but y'know sometimes you gotta do that just do what feels right.


I'm sorry for wasting your time if you've actually read this far.
Oh yeah and nice JTHM reference there Cosmic
"the only way out is through a hole in the head"

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,539
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Analogies of Consciousness [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #329894 - 05/30/01 06:48 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

oh, i don't really expect people to be interested.... i'm sure it shows. mostly i do it for myself, as a way to organize what i'm thinking about into something readable. what you've said is true enough, in a sense. i like to think, sometimes obsessively so. but it's more important to have my mind at rest than having a mastery of some systematic thought. you can have an active, yet peaceful mind. other times it's just mechanical run-off...
MTV is pretty goofy. but, have you seen Amp? that's just crazy trippy madness! definately some mixed messages going on there.... late night anti-drug propaganda comercials cut in between tweeked out psychedelic audio/visual head-fuck! but hell, i don't even have cable anymore... i wonder if they still show it?
glad somebody recognized the Nny reference. Happy Noodle Boy is my hero.
peace/cj

Repent! Repent! Floss Often!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefun_guy
Stranger
Registered: 05/17/01
Posts: 10
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
The fifth dimension [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #330096 - 05/30/01 10:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Possibly consciousness is a dimension. It shares properties with other dimensions. For example, it is measurable - think of when you say 'expanded consciousness' you refer to a change in size; when you say 'unconscious' you mean its absence. Consciousness, like space-time, can also be warped when extreme energy is released within it.

However it is unlike other dimensions in its nature. I mean, all dimensions are unique and cumulative in that they build upon one another. To have a single dimension length you must have 2 non-dimensional points, and so on. When you have 3 dimensions in space coupled with time, therefore it follows that the next dimension encapsulates these and enlarges them somewhat. However consciousness is as unlike space-time as time is unlike space. Given any dimension, it can be subdivided by constructs in the dimension immediately below it. For example, you dissect a 3d block with 2d cuts, a 2d area with 1d lines, and 1d lines with a dot (or a 0 domensional coordinate). Then it follows that space-time (that which we normally perceive to be day-to-day reality) interrupts the next dimension up (consciousness) which is why, when in an altered state however induced, we experience uninterrupted consciousness - simply by shutting out spacetime from our perception. It is like only perceiving things in 2 dimensions and then becoming aware of a 3d block crashing through your 2d paper world. Or like being normally aware or 3 dimension physical objects that last no time, and then becoming aware of these objects having a time span during which they exist.

I was thinking about this today. If you imagine a street full of people, there they are, just people on the street, but in addition to that, each of them carries round with them this invisible bag of selfhood. True enough, all this is neatly encapsulated in neurochemicals, but if that is solely the case then we are no more conscious than a match put to a can of aerosol or an atom bomb. Maybe these things have a primitive consciousness too. I don't know. But what I do know is that even in the everyday life I don't feel as if I am simply reacting to external stimuli. There's a real person here behind these eyes. That said, I don't feel as if it stops there. I am aware of a collective unconscious which manifests itself in all sorts of funny places such as trends, group behaviour, empathy, and the like. Maybe some of it is body language, but there are instances of 2 people, for example, working no the same problem in exactly the same way, separated by some distance. The energy that makes up matter - the energy that holds the electrons to the nucleus in the atom, which in turn makes up elements etc. - would seem to provide the ability to transmit waves within itself - much like any other energy. These waves would then propagate back into matter. Would those waves travel through a vacuum? No idea.

Of course this is all conjecture, but I definitely see a pattern emerging. The exact nature of the fifth dimension is a mystery and I suppose has to be experienced to be understood. You can't explain 3d blocks to 2d paper beings any more than you can explain colour to a blind person.

Then again, all this may just be genetically encoded bullshit. Maybe things like near death experiences and expanded consciousness (or consciousness in any size) is a genetically encoded illusion, evolved along with our intelligence and ability to look inward, to protect us from the harsh, counterproductive (in terms of species survival etc) reality that this is all there is. Aaarggh ..... grak! Thanks for reading. Jokes to follow.

"Quantum physics - the dreams stuff is made of"

"Right now I am lying to you"


--------------------
"Right now I am lying to you"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dimensions Ravus 929 11 08/06/04 10:08 PM
by Simisu
* 2012 - The End of the World Is Nigh! Repent!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
DiploidM 6,553 118 12/22/12 01:24 PM
by Diploid
* The End of the World Is Nigh! Repent!
( 1 2 3 4 all )
DiploidM 3,142 69 01/10/06 12:15 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Metaphors In The Afterlife
( 1 2 3 all )
DiploidM 3,848 43 06/02/07 12:56 PM
by Recondicom
* Judeo-Christian God intended as metaphor?
( 1 2 all )
WhiskeyClone 2,128 21 07/26/05 06:30 PM
by eve69
* Metaphors In The Angular Gyrus, And More Evidence Of The Non-existence Of Soul
( 1 2 all )
DiploidM 1,919 26 01/08/06 02:48 PM
by dr0mni
* thoughts on dimensions
( 1 2 all )
automanM 2,144 34 09/27/03 11:03 AM
by Psychogenik
* 'Fractal' dimension - the meat and potatoes of multidimensionality Jalruza 769 4 09/13/05 04:27 AM
by Fospher

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,902 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
The Spore Depot
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.048 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 19 queries.