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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Re: Agar ;) [Re: ATWAR]
    #3075232 -

ATWAR said:
scatmanrav said:
when you said "anyone who calls this tek worthless" I felt that was directed at me


Not at all. It was a general statement not directed at anyone in particular...
No harm, no foul... I was skeptical at first until I tried it too...


Give it a try, but watch the saturation levels...
Moist, but not soaking wet.



  I speak for myself and say that I wasnt in a huff either, I just wanted to make sure that no one counted this tek out before they gave it a chance.

  I was also quite skeptical,but since I learned about it from someone who I respected (ATWAR),I knew it had to be a worthwhile endeavor.

  So I totally understand your skepticism and wouldnt expect any less from someone who is intelligent enough to question rather than just follow. :thumbup:


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Re: Agar ;) [Re: Mykey]
    #3075445 -

Check out:
FastFred's Media Cookbook (v0.97) Now 60 Recipes, Indexed!

It now includes the "Grey Cardboard (instead of agar)" recipe.


Would anyone care to comment on this method?


-FF

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Re: Agar ;) [Re: fastfred]
    #3076233 -

I will comment.


The purpose of the cardboard tek in the cultivation guide is to have a non-nutritious growth medium. The one listed in your media cookbook has nutritional elements added, which means it is just as likely to contaminate as typical agar recipes...

BTW, I am testing some of your media recipes at the moment, and I can tell you right now the ones I pointed out in the thread are not worth a damn. I don't know where you got the idea these would work for mushroom culture, but you need to reevaluate your cultivation skills and knowledge on the subject... Common sense combined with everything I have learned tell me that they would be a very poor growth medium. A few users had tried to point this out to you, but you refused to listen, and asked for proof (or citations). Since you require proof, I have decided to provide proof in the form of direct comparisons. In fact, a side by side comparison is not even needed, as you can clearly see by the growth how poor the medium actually performs...

I will be posting results in your thread as soon as the plates are colonized by each species tested...


--------------------
To give is to live...


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Re: Agar ;) [Re: ATWAR]
    #3076871 -

Thanks, ATWAR. That's awesome.

I've never claimed that all the recipes will work well. You say that I refused to listen to people about this, but nobody had complaints about any specific media, and they hadn't tried them, so I don't know what you think I should be listening to.

I'll be more than happy to remove, or add a note to, any recipes which are tested and have failed to be suitable.

There are more than 60 recipies in the guide, and I don't think there are any more than 10-15 or so that are questionable. Some of them don't even have any nutrients, like starved agar, so you can't expect them to have great growth.

Agar is also mostly for doing experiments, not just covering a plate as fast as possible. If you simply want fast growth, use PDA, PDY, or MEA. You don't need any of the other medias.

I am very interested to see how your experiments turn out.

You mention that I require proof... That's not true, but I do require something other than the vague accusation that some of the medias won't work. Especially since I've already admitted that, on several occasions.

I just don't see what you and/or Una wanted me to do simply on the basis of vague speculation. The medias that you mentioned in the other thread... Well I don't expect them to be very good performers, but I would be pretty surprised if they didn't work at all.


-FF

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Re: Agar ;) [Re: fastfred]
    #3077411 -

Quote:
I've never claimed that all the recipes will work well. You say that I refused to listen to people about this, but nobody had complaints about any specific media, and they hadn't tried them, so I don't know what you think I should be listening to.


You did indeed say that they will work (I guess the work well part was missing)... I for one had complaints about specific recipes, and Una also pointed it out that half your recipes (before you added more), were not intended for use with mushroom culture...

Quote:
Some of them don't even have any nutrients, like starved agar, so you can't expect them to have great growth.



That is true, but why do you think they are necessary then? I understand the purpose of water agar, but recipes designed for bacteria?

Quote:
Agar is also mostly for doing experiments, not just covering a plate as fast as possible. If you simply want fast growth, use PDA, PDY, or MEA. You don't need any of the other medias.


I don't need media suggestions, thanks though... May I ask what would be the purpose of experimenting with agar designed for bacteria? When one does agar culture, the purpose is to grow mycelium with the intent to propagate it further, or to isolate a pure (clean) culture. These questionable recipes are far more likely to support the proper growth of contaminants rather than mycelia... Experimenting with them would be nothing more than a waste of time...

Quote:
You mention that I require proof... That's not true, but I do require something other than the vague accusation that some of the medias won't work. Especially since I've already admitted that, on several occasions.



Hmm. Now you are saying that some won't work, when in your thread you say "AFAIK all of the media types listed will support proper growth of mycelium.". It appears you are just covering your ass now... While you insist that people back up their accusations, I insist that you provide some sort of information into why these recipes were selected to be copy and pasted...

Quote:
The medias that you mentioned in the other thread... Well I don't expect them to be very good performers, but I would be pretty surprised if they didn't work at all.


Then I ask again, what would be the purpose of using media designed for bacteria and molds? If the media does not support the proper and healthy growth of mycelium, then it is pointless to use for our purposes... Your thread is misleading as to imply the use of all the recipes for mushroom culture when indeed some of them will perform extremely poorly (as suspected)...

I will post results as soon as they are in...


--------------------
To give is to live...


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Re: Agar ;) [Re: ATWAR]
    #3077540 -

ATWAR said:
You did indeed say that they will work (I guess the work well part was missing)... I for one had complaints about specific recipes,[...]


If I recall right... You said something along the lines of "I don't think that X, Y, and Z media will work." Again I say... What do you want me to do? Do you think I should just randomly remove recipes simply based on speculation like that?

I did organize the guide into sections to clear things up a bit, and I do plan to write an intro or note about some of the medias at the end not being optimal.


Quote:
>Some of them don't even have any nutrients...<
That is true, but why do you think they are necessary then? I understand the purpose of water agar, but recipes designed for bacteria?


I don't know all of the many different experiments that could be performed. Each experimenter has their own ideas about what they want to investigate. I would imagine that having a lot of different recipes would help anyone investigating nutritional requirements, etc. I really don't understand why people seem to be actually upset because I've included a lot of recipes.


Quote:
May I ask what would be the purpose of experimenting with agar designed for bacteria?


Which media(s) are you referring to? Almost all the medias that I included are very simple and aren't "designed" for anything specific.


Quote:
When one does agar culture, the purpose is to grow mycelium with the intent to propagate it further, or to isolate a pure (clean) culture.


There are other factors to consider such as storage and experimentation and who knows what else. There are different selection strategies that require the use of different media, etc.

I'm totally open to trimming down the guide somewhat, but speculation about the suitability of medias isn't a good enough reason. Anything that proves to be a poor media will be thrown out.

Maybe you have some ideas about how to best do this. I was thinking that anything that performs under 10% of PDA should be tossed. Do you think that's a reasonable criteria?


Quote:
Experimenting with them would be nothing more than a waste of time...


Experiments are rarely a waste of time, unless they've already been done. Finding out if mycelium will grow on different media seems like a pretty good experiment to me.

Quote:
Hmm. Now you are saying that some won't work, when in your thread you say "AFAIK all of the media types listed will support proper growth of mycelium.". It appears you are just covering your ass now...


I also said that I hadn't tried all of them and that there were probably some that wouldn't work too well. AFAIK was the key word in that quote of mine. I said it to shut down the unproductive and vague speculation that was going on, and it is 100% true. I'm not knowingly keeping poor medias in the cookbook, but in the absence of any evidence that they don't work I choose to wait and see before I decide. I'll be trying a lot of them myself in the future, so I would just as soon wait until the data is in.


Quote:
While you insist that people back up their accusations, I insist that you provide some sort of information into why these recipes were selected to be copy and pasted...


My criteria for choosing what to include was mainly simplicity. If I thought it could be prepared at home without a chemical stockroom, then I included it. I also threw out many that I didn't think would support growth. There were a number that were questionable so I decided to leave them in and solicit other people's advice and experience. If nobody knows, well then it makes a good experiment.


Quote:
Then I ask again, what would be the purpose of using media designed for bacteria and molds?


Could you be more specific? Few, if any, of the media I included are "designed for bacteria". Most of them aren't designed at all and are just simple ways of putting different nutes into agar.

Malt is designed for brewing beer, not growing mushrooms, maybe we should throw out all the malt recipes?


Quote:
If the media does not support the proper and healthy growth of mycelium, then it is pointless to use for our purposes...


I am in total agreement here. Pending the results of your experiments, I'm sure there will be some good data to add to the cookbook.


Quote:
Your thread is misleading as to imply the use of all the recipes for mushroom culture when indeed some of them will perform extremely poorly (as suspected)...


I'm not trying to mislead anyone. In fact, it really doesn't say much about mushrooms at all in my media cookbook and it certainly doesn't claim that any specific media will absolutely 100% work.

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