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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: dinosaurs]
    #29666554 -

dinosaurs said:
Enlil said:
It isn't surprising to hear someone from Canada with that opinion.  Canada isn't known for it's protection of free speech.


Canada also isn't known for having a fascistic govt that openly declares its intent to cheat in elections in order to cling to power. 

I'd take a reasonably nerfed freedom of speech ala Canada's over whatever the fuck we have going on here.


Short sighted af, but whatever gives you the quickest bang for your buck, homie.

Canada is known for putting people in prison for expressing unpopular opinions, however.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666608 -

Enlil said:
Awebig Throy said:
In America, we don't have dictators, so punishing a man for being unable to convince 435 other people to keep his promise would be unjust.



That's one of the reasons I wish we had a parliamentary system. Makes it harder to scapegoat.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: dinosaurs]
    #29666713 -

dinosaurs said:
Enlil said:
It isn't surprising to hear someone from Canada with that opinion.  Canada isn't known for it's protection of free speech.


Canada also isn't known for having a fascistic govt that openly declares its intent to cheat in elections in order to cling to power. 

I'd take a reasonably nerfed freedom of speech ala Canada's over whatever the fuck we have going on here.



didn't canada cut off banking to a bunch of truckers who were laying on their horns for a few days?

Also the 2011 federal elections in Canada come to mind. Then there was the 1998 election where there was vote-rigging. Not to mention the Chinese infiltration of your government.

Canada isn't some panacea of fairness. Maybe its the lack of freedom of speech that makes you think it is.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29666774 -

Enlil said:
dinosaurs said:
Enlil said:
It isn't surprising to hear someone from Canada with that opinion.  Canada isn't known for it's protection of free speech.


Canada also isn't known for having a fascistic govt that openly declares its intent to cheat in elections in order to cling to power. 

I'd take a reasonably nerfed freedom of speech ala Canada's over whatever the fuck we have going on here.


Short sighted af, but whatever gives you the quickest bang for your buck, homie.

Canada is known for putting people in prison for expressing unpopular opinions, however.



Can you link us to an example of a criminalized unpopular opinion? -- Canada criminalizes hate speech, but a lawyer should know that the legal criteria for this is not "expressing unpopular opinions".

Canada has a different political theory underpinning freedom of expression, which gave rise to hate speech limitations,  but functionally there is not a significant difference in how the freedom of expression manifests for the average person.

And especially once we start to consider things like free speech zones being intentionally used to prevent or obstruct political protest in the USA, it quickly becomes clear that the argument isn't that Canada limits free speech while the USA doesn't, it's that the two countries limit free speech in different ways -- so it's particularly odd when people choose hate speech as the limitation to focus on.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: AlChemicalResearch]
    #29666789 -

AlChemicalResearch said:
didn't canada cut off banking to a bunch of truckers who were laying on their horns for a few days?

Also the 2011 federal elections in Canada come to mind. Then there was the 1998 election where there was vote-rigging. Not to mention the Chinese infiltration of your government.

Canada isn't some panacea of fairness. Maybe its the lack of freedom of speech that makes you think it is.


Canada had federal elections in 1997 and 2011, but I'm unaware of any significant controversy regarding vote-rigging -- you'll have to expand on that thought if you want to make a point -- especially considering all that supposed freedom of speech in the USA hasn't prevented multiple election controversies going back decades -- Bush vs Gore ringing any bells?

The emergencies act was invoked for more than just honking trucks, but that was absolutely very controversial use of a very controversial piece of Canadian law -- and it was the very first time it was ever used -- it had since been found to have been an unlawful use by the Canadian courts -- specifically because it unreasonably limited freedom of expression, and other protected rights -- and those legal decisions will ideally limit any use of the emergencies act going forward.

Of course, anyone who thinks that any law or freedom will protect them from a government that has decided to ignore them, is just fooling themselves


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666816 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Can you link us to an example of a criminalized unpopular opinion? -- n.


Quote:
Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666827 -

Lol Canadians.

In Canada you can make a fly by night plane company.

But forbid you from saying something bad about Israel.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

Edited by budmanman (09/12/26 07:05 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666838 -

Enlil said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Can you link us to an example of a criminalized unpopular opinion? -- n.


Quote:
Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html


Where does it mention unpopular opinions?

One could question why antisemitism and Holocaust denial need a specific carve-out, but it still lands firmly within the realm of 'public promotion of hatred' -- which, as a lawyer should already understand, does not use "unpopular opinion" as criteria for conviction.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666839 -

In my opinion, the Holocaust didn't happen.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: budmanman] * 3
    #29666840 -

In my opinion, people who think the Holocaust didn't happen are fucking retarded.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: PatrickKn] * 1
    #29666848 -

That is inciting hate, you should be locked up.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

Edited by budmanman (09/12/26 07:38 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666860 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Enlil said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Can you link us to an example of a criminalized unpopular opinion? -- n.


Quote:
Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html


Where does it mention unpopular opinions?

One could question why antisemitism and Holocaust denial need a specific carve-out, but it still lands firmly within the realm of 'public promotion of hatred' -- which, as a lawyer should already understand, does not use "unpopular opinion" as criteria for conviction.


I guess we disagree yet again. Holocaust denial is an unpopular opinion and nowhere is hatred mentioned as an element of that crime.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666887 -

The Canadian government defines antisemitism as "hatred toward Jews", so it's implied -- it's also a subsection under the more general "wilfully promoting hatred" -- the law is criminalizing using genocide denial to promote hatred of a protected group, and this becomes even more obvious when one examines the accompanying criminal acts: "advocating genocide" and "publicly inciting hatred likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

Furthermore,
Quote:
Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

[...]

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true;



Even unpopular opinions like Holocaust denial are allowed if they are truthful or relevant to public interest.

No freedoms are absolute, including the first amendment -- especially where one human right bumps into another, like balancing the freedom of expression with the freedom from discrimination -- slippery slope arguments notwithstanding, I think the Canadian government has a pretty good historical record of when speech is criminalized as hatred -- perhaps you could refer me to one of the more egregious examples of a Canadian being jailed for what you term an "unpopular opinion"?


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666915 -

:lolocaust: Doesn't work anymore wtf


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666946 -

Enlil said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Enlil said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Can you link us to an example of a criminalized unpopular opinion? -- n.


Quote:
Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html


Where does it mention unpopular opinions?

One could question why antisemitism and Holocaust denial need a specific carve-out, but it still lands firmly within the realm of 'public promotion of hatred' -- which, as a lawyer should already understand, does not use "unpopular opinion" as criteria for conviction.


I guess we disagree yet again. Holocaust denial is an unpopular opinion and nowhere is hatred mentioned as an element of that crime.


Give it a min there will be.


--------------------
The better guide to grow mushrooms.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Beware the power of one.  The power of two. The power of many.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666947 -

shivas.wisdom said:
The Canadian government defines antisemitism as "hatred toward Jews"


I don't believe that to be correct as applied legally


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: budmanman]
    #29666958 -

Quote:
lolocaust: Doesn't work anymore wtf


 
How do you explain the unprecedented wave of mass suicide committed by Germans at the end of the war ? They must  of felt collectively really bad about something .


--------------------


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666971 -

shivas.wisdom said:
The Canadian government defines antisemitism as "hatred toward Jews", so it's implied -- it's also a subsection under the more general "wilfully promoting hatred" -- the law is criminalizing using genocide denial to promote hatred of a protected group, and this becomes even more obvious when one examines the accompanying criminal acts: "advocating genocide" and "publicly inciting hatred likely to lead to a breach of the peace".

Furthermore,
Quote:
Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

[...]

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true;



Even unpopular opinions like Holocaust denial are allowed if they are truthful or relevant to public interest.

No freedoms are absolute, including the first amendment -- especially where one human right bumps into another, like balancing the freedom of expression with the freedom from discrimination -- slippery slope arguments notwithstanding, I think the Canadian government has a pretty good historical record of when speech is criminalized as hatred -- perhaps you could refer me to one of the more egregious examples of a Canadian being jailed for what you term an "unpopular opinion"?



https://www.vice.com/en/article/a-canadian-comedian-was-ordered-to-pay-42000-because-he-insulted-a-child-with-a-disability/

Canadian comedian fined $42,000 cause he made fun of a disabled person. It's literally his job to make fun of people. Someone wants to interpret that as hatred, boom, life changing fine.

How does one define hatred btw? Cause according to the ADL saying "Christ is King" is anti-semitic. Or criticizing globalists. You shoudl check out their website its' wild what they consider anti-semitic. Oh and they train the FBI on what anti-semetism is. we're lucky we have free speech in the USA. or most of us would be fined millions of dollars a year. Which is outrageous.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29666976 -

shivas.wisdom said:
AlChemicalResearch said:
didn't canada cut off banking to a bunch of truckers who were laying on their horns for a few days?

Also the 2011 federal elections in Canada come to mind. Then there was the 1998 election where there was vote-rigging. Not to mention the Chinese infiltration of your government.

Canada isn't some panacea of fairness. Maybe its the lack of freedom of speech that makes you think it is.


Canada had federal elections in 1997 and 2011, but I'm unaware of any significant controversy regarding vote-rigging -- you'll have to expand on that thought if you want to make a point -- especially considering all that supposed freedom of speech in the USA hasn't prevented multiple election controversies going back decades -- Bush vs Gore ringing any bells?

The emergencies act was invoked for more than just honking trucks, but that was absolutely very controversial use of a very controversial piece of Canadian law -- and it was the very first time it was ever used -- it had since been found to have been an unlawful use by the Canadian courts -- specifically because it unreasonably limited freedom of expression, and other protected rights -- and those legal decisions will ideally limit any use of the emergencies act going forward.

Of course, anyone who thinks that any law or freedom will protect them from a government that has decided to ignore them, is just fooling themselves


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Canadian_federal_election_voter_suppression_scandal ; read up about it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba-tories-guilty-of-vote-rigging-1.179959

Quote:
Three Manitoba Conservatives broke the law with a scheme to split votes in the last provincial election, but an inquiry has cleared the premier and the party as a whole.

Justice Alfred Monin led Manitoba's election inquiry and released his report on Monday. He says Conservatives Taras Sokolyk, Alan Aikin and Cubby Barrett hatched the plot to induce aboriginal candidate Daryl Sutherland to run in order to draw votes from the NDP candidate.


Maybe the fact you lack freedom of speech in Canada is why you don't know about these scandals. But you sure seem to know a lot about Trump. Maybe clean your house up first before you start telling other people to clean their house up.

But that's ironic you're all like laws won't protect you from a government out to get you, and you're ok with stifling one of the only tools the populace has against government: free speech. Remember, if your speech didn't matter, they wouldn't bother with propaganda. They need to use propaganda to subvert your ability to speak freely. Or, in Canada's case, just make super vague laws and arbitrarily enforce them.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29666979 -

The Criminal Code doesn't define antisemitism, but the federal government does provide a working definition which begins: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.”

This specific law was created in 2022, and I could only find four people charged so far, and only one conviction -- this person pled guilty, so it wasn't necessary for the crown to establish their speech as antisemitic.

I agree that having an undefined criminal term is problematic, but the available evidence doesn't suggest that this is being used to criminalize unpopular opinions, nor that it is being widely used at all. I imagine that, given time, a contested 319(2.1) prosecution is a likely path by which Canada will eventually develop a judicial definition of antisemitism.

Still waiting to see you provide an example of a person jailed in Canada for the crime of "expressing an unpopular opinion".


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