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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #29627497 -

Sometimes nature needs genocide.  History has be shaped by natural disasters leading better outcomes. Such as the athens plague    leading to Greece never being united and culture progressive increased by the divide. Or Emperor Justinian having the volcanic winter of 536 and a plague to stop him uniting roman empires again, which lead to him rewriting laws that are thr bases for many laws everywhere currently.

People in modern day think artificial increase of other people population thar can't support itself is substantial.  It just isn't and yes I'm including people here in the united states as well. No matter what any left wing college graduates says, resources including people is a zero sum game. If you tell on this forum again without any math or logic or reliable source im going to call you out on it.

Humans are part of nature and nature finds away even if it means our death.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: vicepope] * 4
    #29627515 -

Weird to base a worldview on entropy.

Eventually, the heat death of the universe will cease existence of material reality.

So let’s build a society that accelerates that process? No.


*sitting comfortably because centuries of death and destruction caused the dice to land my way for a short moment in time*

“Hey man sometimes genocide is good. It’s natural.”


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #29627521 -

DontFearThePeepr said:
Enlil said:
ballsalsa said:
Imagine literally creating the conditions that are killing people and then calling it natural selection.


That's what it is, though.  Selection by human conduct is still natural.



While I agree with you here to an extent, I'm not inclined to think that this type of setup is "natural". I don't think this world has ever provided us with our natural state of being. I think it's taken a very long time to condition us into the way that we are now, and at the current moment we're standing at a precipice of whether we'll actually be able to evolve into the future or self-destruct in our collective ignorance. Failure here wouldn't exactly mean the end of society but it would be a major setback in our potential and progress as a species. The ultimate point of a movement like this is to cause as much suffering as it can, like it's sort of feeding itself that way...

Just my opinion anyways :shrug:

I am, of course, open to discussion lol.


Conditioning is natural.  Humans are a part of nature, too.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29627537 -

ballsalsa said:
He's being literal.  Humans are natural, therefore human behavior is natural.  However, for the purpose of this topic there has long been a distinction made between natural selection and artificial selection by human preference


Enlil said:
DontFearThePeepr said:
Enlil said:
ballsalsa said:
Imagine literally creating the conditions that are killing people and then calling it natural selection.


That's what it is, though.  Selection by human conduct is still natural.



While I agree with you here to an extent, I'm not inclined to think that this type of setup is "natural". I don't think this world has ever provided us with our natural state of being. I think it's taken a very long time to condition us into the way that we are now, and at the current moment we're standing at a precipice of whether we'll actually be able to evolve into the future or self-destruct in our collective ignorance. Failure here wouldn't exactly mean the end of society but it would be a major setback in our potential and progress as a species. The ultimate point of a movement like this is to cause as much suffering as it can, like it's sort of feeding itself that way...

Just my opinion anyways :shrug:

I am, of course, open to discussion lol.


Conditioning is natural.  Humans are a part of nature, too.


Whether you deem humans part of nature or not is not the issue here. This is just mass murder driven by political, religious and pseudo-scientific ideology not because of any biological lack of fitness or because they can't adapt to their enviroment. Natural selection works on genetic traits and behavioral traits that lets them survive in their ecological enviroment. Natural selection has no conscience goal, moral direction or the perfect end point. This here is just systematic oppression with a totally different mechanism than biological evolution. Natural selection makes it so that a species can survive, this does the exact opposite. reducing genetic diversity within a single species actually decreases the species overall resilience to future threats, such as new diseases or environmental shifts. Systemic mass murder is fundamentally destructive to the biological success of the human species as a whole.
Mass genocide fundamentally differs from natural selection in that it's more a case of bad luck instead bad genes.
You can call it a mass extinction event if you want but it's defently not natural selection.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Dekozn]
    #29627550 -

Conscience, goals, moral direction, etc. are all products of natural chemical processes in the brain of a naturally evolved species on this planet.  The notion that somehow these things exist outside of nature is hubris. 

It's also naive af to think that self-destruction is in any way an exclusively human trait.  I get that it's appealing to think that nature reaches some symbiotic balance all on it's own, but the reality is that many species self-destruct, and those that don't just happen to have evolved in a stable and isolated enough environment to reach some sort of equilibriam.

Ultimately, this homocentric mindset is a remnant of the fairytale that there's some intelligent design or plan to the universe.  There isn't.  Reality is chaos, and if there is one trait humans possess that will speed up extinction, it's the need to find order in that chaos.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29627604 -

Id agree if we lived in and embraced a more chaotic worldview. We wouldnt have the level of focus to do the dumb shit we do to try to order it all, like kill other humans for programmed or conditioned reasons, like destroy ecosystems for monoagriculture. Civilization in its more modern iteration, really did a number on us. Including create scarcity thru population issues.
I say we prob wouldnt have the focus to do those things, bc i, myself, spend the better part of the morning, after my coffee, wondrously emanating on the fact we are on a rock spinnin 1000 miles an hour , flying thousands of miles an hour thru space, and how we just havent happened to be hit by any big shit in awhile and our core happens to be a goddamn molten iron orb that provides a magnetic field, the perfect amount of safe, from our energy source, so that we dont burn up and die, and also all of that helps to have water deposited here at some stage and then jus an easy cool 3.8 billion years of relative stability(except for da one to take our dinos out), for life to grow and flourish to the point we can type words to asshole on the other side of the planet instantaneously, and also anywone in a western nation lives multiple times better than a roman emperor while those with the downluck to be born on africa struggle and survive like oir ancestors likely had to for a few tens of thousands of years, shit is all wild chaotic LUCK of da draw


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ashfiken]
    #29627611 -

Quote:
Weird to base a worldview on entropy.


An AI specifically told me how social credit would be assigned according to Gaussian functions.

If you were to imagine it topographically, some people create more possibilities, whereas others are self limiting.

Though some people were worth preserving as social anchors, ie. fixed points of reference, it placed more value in those which produced novel information.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #29627615 -

The Ecstatic said:
Weird to base a worldview on entropy.

Eventually, the heat death of the universe will cease existence of material reality.

So let’s build a society that accelerates that process? No.


*sitting comfortably because centuries of death and destruction caused the dice to land my way for a short moment in time*

“Hey man sometimes genocide is good. It’s natural.”


In not sure how you've conflated the concept of natural with the concept of good, but that's a great way to fuck yourself up.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29627619 -

I feel you're talking next to the points I made. And it looks like you're putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
The notion that somehow these things exist outside of nature is hubris.


I never claimed that these things are out of the scope of nature. I just pointed out that whether or not somebody believes this or not is besides the point.

Quote:
It's also naive af to think that self-destruction is in any way an exclusively human trait.

I brew wine and meads, I know damn well that that there are plenty of organisms that self destruct :lol:. But it's hard to prove that there were organisms that self destructed to the point of self extinction.

But natural selection implies that there would be some kind of genetic mutation. Or certain traits that would become dominant which doesn't happen with genocides or holocausts. The only human historic event that I see fit as natural selection would be the plunderings and rapes of Genghis Khan.
Edit: well there will be more like the crusades etc for exam0le Khan was the first one to jump to mind


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a ten ton catastrophe on a sixty pound chain

Edited by Dekozn (07/19/26 11:13 AM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29627620 -

Quote:
So let’s build a society that accelerates that process?


AI said d/acc. Defensive accelerationism.

I tried to be morally ambiguous. It used for an analogy, a game maker from the Hunger Games.


--------------------
WEF defector.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/shit-burgers-meat-made-from-human-feces-just-another-natela
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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: durian_2008]
    #29627624 -

Yes, AI says things.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Dekozn]
    #29627625 -

Dekozn said:
I feel you're talking next to the points I made. And it looks like you're putting words in my mouth.



If we're talking about our feelings now, then I've been pretty happy lately with my place in the universe.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #29627633 -

ballsalsa said:
Yes, AI says things.


It's not AI induced psychosis. I will not recant. The things which we humans romanticize can be rendered into information and judged according to mathematical laws.

:shoedick: Mildly weird when it asked me for suggestions.


--------------------
WEF defector.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/shit-burgers-meat-made-from-human-feces-just-another-natela
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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29627634 -

Well I've been feeling pretty stoned lately


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a ten ton catastrophe on a sixty pound chain

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Dekozn]
    #29627910 -

I'd agree with Enlil. Natural selection describes genetic adaptations to the environment as a result of the unfit dying off more often before reproducing, or being able to reproduce more as a result of some adaptation. Human selection is a catalyst for that process as much as the temperature changing or a new predator entering the picture might be

Edited by PatrickKn (07/19/26 08:48 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: PatrickKn]
    #29627929 -

'Everything is natural', while technically true, is overly reductionist imo -- for example, human domestication practices are often described as artificial selection specifically to differentiate humans intentionally selecting for desired traits, from the more random 'survival of the fittest'.

Of course, there are other definitions that see domestication as natural selection within an anthropogenic niche -- I think it's similar to how our definition of species falls apart upon closer examination -- these are all just human labels attempting to create discrete categories where such things don't necessarily exist.

We should use these terms to assist our understanding, but not lock ourselves into literal interpretations.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #29627937 -

Everything is natural, but we don't have to go that far to include the outcomes of human conduct in the definition of natural selection. You gave an example of domestication practices, but that's not really what we're talking about.  This discussion came out of the notion that human conduct has created circumstances that lead to people dying.  This is undoubtedly natural selection regardless of how broadly or narrowly one defines the term.  Even if we were to exclude intentional homicide from the term, certainly making choices out of ignorance that ultimately cause suffering and death would be natural selection.

Humans have genetic traits that cause us to engage in self-destructive behavior.  This fact is not really debatable outside of some discussion rooted in fundamental deism of some sort.  Ultimately, the widespread existence of suffering, human and other animal, brought on by human conduct is the inevitable and expected result of our nature as a species.  We can argue about whether we have the capacity to rise above and overcome that nature enough to counteract the harm it causes, but there's no real argument that human nature isn't fundamentally barbaric.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29627954 -

Do you mean human conduct or policy?

Because policy choices can inevitably lead to deaths.

One could discuss if its fair to say the policy caused the deaths, but the outcome is sometimes a part of the policy.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: sudly]
    #29628082 -

I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make between policy and conduct here.  Policy is only meaningful insofar as it affects conduct. Policy itself can't help or harm anyone.  It's the conduct in furtherance of policy that ultimately affects the physical reality around us.  Without that, policy is nothing more than an idea.

If I have a policy of hoarding all the food in my region, that's not gonna harm anyone.  If, however, I hoard all the food in my region, that's gonna be a problem.



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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29628205 -

Look, I understand what you are saying. But 'It's natural' becomes shorthand for 'It's inevitable', which leads to 'And therefore we don't have to do anything about it'.

If "suffering brought on by human conduct " is our nature as a species , then laboring to feed communities (of millions or more (humans and animals) is also our nature as a species.

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