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New Thoughts on Novelty Theory * 1
    #26153147 -

my second thread I ever made here describes my take on Novelty Theory.
Essentially, what I did was attempt to understand experience, to break this down into something fundamental and simple and see what I could do with it from there.
So I devised a thought experiment to take time out of experience, and wondered what that would leave me with.
  If I were moving at the speed of light, time would appear to stop, right?
But my experience would not stop. I would experience time stopping and simultaneously exist in a time of my own locality.
Therefore, I thought, experience must be independent of time in some way, perhaps fundamental to it, or related in some way.
So what is experience than if not time?
It is memory plus novelty. You cannot experience without a memory of what was nor without something new happening to this memory (otherwise it would simply be a memory)at all times.

Another way of saying this would be that the present moment MUST BE fundamentally certain and uncertain at the same time to exist.

This concept means time may simply be a construct of ours to describe our locality to whatever moment we are experiencing. Meaning it need not be in the equation whatsoever.
Time then, is actually the same thing as experience. It is what is certain combined with what is fundamentally uncertain and this is the construct of everything in the  universe that is happening in the present moment.
is this significant?
How can this understanding be used?
What are the implications?
there are correlations I have noticed, uncanny correlations to modern concepts driving our present understanding of the universe, I will explain a few.
  It seems that what we think of as "time" is actually the universe itself. It is simply the expanding universe, everything it is is time.
Experience then, is our locality to a specific time.
This also seems to explain why the universe expansion is accelerating.
Everything beyond the universe is uncertainty. The universe that is expanding is certainty, because it exists.
The more that exists increases uncertainty and its mystery acts like gravity to existence, driving it forward, at an ever accelerating pace.
It may actually be measurable, in fact, we know uncertainty to be a fundamental concept to quantum mechanics.
Nobody knows why.
Quantum mechanics is inherently weird, yet with this, it seems to almost all make sense.

Am I making sense?
This is just the tip of the iceberg.

  If you use this concept, you can see that it literally describes everything.
It describes you reading this right now, for instance.

What are your thoughts?
This describes that as well.



--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (08/26/19 03:04 AM)

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx] * 1
    #26153449 -

Your post reminds me of the implicate order hypothesis. One of its tenets is that each new moment is shaped in part by past history, and in part by creativity, which goes hand in hand with your comments about certainty (or habit) and novelty. In essence, this means that as Nature is created anew in each moment, it also learns and remembers, which further shapes what new explicate structures are likely to emerge.

As far as the expansion of the universe and time, I tend to think of it this way: Just as space is expanding due to the big bang, so is time. The present is like the leading edge of the dimension of time, behind which is time that has already unfolded, and ahead of which is the uncreated future. Our perception of the passage of time is complementary to the expansion of time through the present, from past to future. The implicate order hypothesis attempts to describe the dynamics of this change.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153450 -

experience is not separate from mind and body, so the lightspeed thought experiment self cancels, as your mass would approach infinity you would stop experiencing.

yes time is fundamental to this space and gravity universe, and time is also fundamental to sequences of momentary experiences that may become memory and in so doing become a framework for perception and understanding.

novelty applies to anything that seems fresh, i.e. when the ordinary is changed enough that it may become the basis of a whole new set of experiences and memories. However, not all things that are different are experienced as novel, instead, most things that are non-conforming are ignored, so the right balance of newness and familiarity is what you seek in novelty.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26153572 -

DividedQuantum said:
Your post reminds me of the implicate order hypothesis. One of its tenets is that each new moment is shaped in part by past history, and in part by creativity, which goes hand in hand with your comments about certainty (or habit) and novelty. In essence, this means that as Nature is created anew in each moment, it also learns and remembers, which further shapes what new explicate structures are likely to emerge.

As far as the expansion of the universe and time, I tend to think of it this way: Just as space is expanding due to the big bang, so is time. The present is like the leading edge of the dimension of time, behind which is time that has already unfolded, and ahead of which is the uncreated future. Our perception of the passage of time is complementary to the expansion of time through the present, from past to future. The implicate order hypothesis attempts to describe the dynamics of this change.



Interesting.

I cannot find anything though on why the expansion is accelerating, besides theories of dark energy.
It gets pretty murky trying to understand from here..
It makes sense from a philosophical point of view, that as the universe expands, there is an accelerating increase in the information content, more events happening which increase the complexity, and the uncertainty of the universe, the combination of increasing certainty and uncertainty means the universe expansion must be accelerating, it wouldn't make sense if it did not.

If it were this simple, it's easy to see why the universe is accelerating its expansion.
In physics however, it doesn't make sense that the universe expansion is accelerating whatsoever.
Its difficult to reconcile the logic of an expanding universe by novelty versus what we can currently accept as physics

For instance,
If energy is a constant, cannot be created nor destroyed, then how is this acceleration possible? Even if you bring dark matter and energy to the equation, doesn't this mean that energy is being created somewhere?
Does implicate and explicate order get into this?
Perhaps the energy constant is simply much much greater than we ever thought possible, the big bang is still banging.
I need to study it more.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (08/26/19 12:07 PM)

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26153579 -

redgreenvines said:
experience is not separate from mind and body, so the lightspeed thought experiment self cancels, as your mass would approach infinity you would stop experiencing.

yes time is fundamental to this space and gravity universe, and time is also fundamental to sequences of momentary experiences that may become memory and in so doing become a framework for perception and understanding.

novelty applies to anything that seems fresh, i.e. when the ordinary is changed enough that it may become the basis of a whole new set of experiences and memories. However, not all things that are different are experienced as novel, instead, most things that are non-conforming are ignored, so the right balance of newness and familiarity is what you seek in novelty.



Well that's why it's a thought experiment and not an actual one. Besides that, however, infinite measurements do not mean not possible.
Look at black holes for instance.
They are infinitely dense and infinitely small.
They also represent singularities of novelty, imo.
Novelty here is not what seems new, it is the very quality of being such.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (08/26/19 12:10 PM)

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153616 -

The alphabet is a good example of what I am talking about.

We have 26 letters. They exist, they are certain.
What is uncertain is how I am going to arrange these letters in the present moment as you read them.
It certainly is novel only as you experience it as you cannot predict what I am going to write. You may have a good idea where I am headed, thanks to what you know, the words you have already read, but that's about it.
And that is sort of how our experience is with everything, and how everything behaves in the present.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153637 -

hTx said:
Interesting.

I cannot find anything though on why the expansion is accelerating, besides theories of dark energy.
It gets pretty murky trying to understand from here..
It makes sense from a philosophical point of view, that as the universe expands, there is an accelerating increase in the information content, more events happening which increase the complexity, and the uncertainty of the universe, the combination of increasing certainty and uncertainty means the universe expansion must be accelerating, it wouldn't make sense if it did not.

If it were this simple, it's easy to see why the universe is accelerating its expansion.
In physics however, it doesn't make sense that the universe expansion is accelerating whatsoever.
Its difficult to reconcile the logic of an expanding universe by novelty versus what we can currently accept as physics

For instance,
If energy is a constant, cannot be created nor destroyed, then how is this acceleration possible? Even if you bring dark matter and energy to the equation, doesn't this mean that energy is being created somewhere?
Does implicate and explicate order get into this?
Perhaps the energy constant is simply much much greater than we ever thought possible, the big bang is still banging.
I need to study it more.




Well, the implicate order hypothesis does not address cosmology; it's more of an elucidation of quantum behavior. Honestly, the cosmologists in the physics establishment have no idea why the expansion of the universe is accelerating. General relativity predicts it, but no one can put their finger on the mechanism. They invent proposals like dark matter and dark energy, but really these are just arbitrary interpolations of the experimental data. We have not observed them, but they are posited because something must be there driving the expansion. So really at this point, your guess is as good as Einstein's. I don't know enough about the whole thing to know whether conservation of energy is being violated, but I'm sure they've created some patchwork explanation as to how it isn't.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153640 -

hTx said:
The alphabet is a good example of what I am talking about.

We have 26 letters. They exist, they are certain.
What is uncertain is how I am going to arrange these letters in the present moment as you read them.
It certainly is novel only as you experience it as you cannot predict what I am going to write. You may have a good idea where I am headed, thanks to what you know, the words you have already read, but that's about it.
And that is sort of how our experience is with everything, and how everything behaves in the present.




I think this sort of analogy can apply across the board. Look at DNA. It's the language that makes life possible. And isn't the periodic table like an alphabet? Atoms combine in different ways, making the composition and behavior of the universe what it is. Mix together the laws of physics and a series of letters -- atoms -- and a universe is possible. Mathematics is essentially a language too. I think the language analogy is quite broad and general.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26153755 -

It's crazy isn't it?
It seems so common sense and maybe even so what, yet it is very profound to me, and it came to me very much like how T. McKenna explains his sudden understanding of this process.
Surely there must be some way to explain it mathematically but my skills in this area totally lack, I have no idea how to invent the math which describes this fully, but your right,  implicate and explicate order seems to be a definite right step in that direction...
As do Godels math and theorems of completeness and incompleteness, essentially seeming to my basic understanding of it anyways, to be a very solid attempt at capturing this logic in mathematical form.

I wish this logic was explored more by the hard sciences, hence my attempts to explain it with words, I do think it holds real value in coming to a much greater understanding of the universe.

Another example of the potential power of applying this theory is that it could even explain a purpose for life, consciousness and self-awareness in the universe.

The increasing complexity of life, for instance, is not currently understood in the hard sciences. By all theory, there is no reason that life forms should become complex over time, and yet, they do. In novelty theory, they must.
Technology is another example, not only does novelty theory explain its inevitability, it explains its sudden and dramatic increase in complexity, why we went from horses and sails for thousands of years, to steam engines, cars and planes within the past 200 years.
T. McKenna singularity is describing a point when the uncertainty potential created by everything in existence becomes so great that paradigm shifts as great as horses to vehicles which took thousands of years,  happen over a period of mere moments.
  I think this great attractor he describes at the end of time is actually uncertainty, and it is the very reason for the expansion of it.
Its perpetual motion.
I apologize if this seems like word salad at the moment as I get into the more complex implications of the theory, I am attempting to refine it to something easily understood by posting here.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (08/26/19 02:03 PM)

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153767 -

No, I think that was quite well reasoned. The difficult thing is that most people think this sort of thinking is garbage, which is one of the big reasons why sciences like neuroscience, cosmology and even quantum theory are really going nowhere atm, except in very specialized and narrow domains. A lot of the science establishment is still using the Cartesian model, which was replaced a hundred years ago but I guess very few got the memo. And of the few scientists who are doing original work, only a handful are thinking about their ideas in a constructive way. Breakthroughs are coming, I guess, but when?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26153791 -

a black hole is not infinitely dense, geez.
the star that formed it had mass.
that is the mass that falls in on itself to a tiny but finite fraction of the size. at that point it has a much higher density, not an infinite density.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26153810 -

Classical mathematical descriptions of black holes define their singularities as objects of infinite density and infinitely small volume.

  It's why we doubted their existence yet they are there.

Which also relates to the theory.
A super massive blackhole is at the center of every galaxy...and every star in its makeup is pulled to this ultimate uncertainty that constitutes a black hole, by it's very definition it is the physical representation of uncertainty and the universes attraction to it.

Maybe a bit of a dramatic case here, but it fits.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26153838 -

That's what I'm saying! We have more insanely intelligent people in this time than ever, yet it seems the major breakthroughs of understanding have slowed dramatically, even while discovery and invention are increasing rapidly.
Indeed, novelty theory does not seem practical in terms of technology and what we are able to actually physically produce from understanding it, but it does seem useful in advancing our current understanding of what we already know, and could perhaps help in some future breakthrough I suspect. 
That dude who claims to have the highest IQ ever recorded yet works as a bouncer and the such has some interesting things to say, but no doubt,  will never be taken seriously in academia. 
  Hopefully some one somewhere is on to something, it's been awhile since our worldview has been completly shaken up the way einstein or newton did.
Seems we are about due for some sort of revolution of understanding.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: hTx]
    #26154387 -

quoting from wikipedia re Black holes :
Quote:
Black holes of stellar mass are expected to form when very massive stars collapse at the end of their life cycle. After a black hole has formed, it can continue to grow by absorbing mass from its surroundings. By absorbing other stars and merging with other black holes, supermassive black holes of millions of solar masses (Mβ˜‰) may form. There is general consensus that supermassive black holes exist in the centers of most galaxies.



the term infinite is not part of the definition and should not be.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26154401 -

I think the confusion is arising because in the equations of general relativity, the solution giving a black hole does involve an infinitely dense and infinitely small singularity. What we actually observe is that these things have size, are not infinitely dense and are much more complex than general relativity can deal with.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26154653 -

McKenna's theory, though noble and entertaining, was built upon a plethora of erroneous axioms and assumptions.

Trying to model after him similarly will bring a similar fate.

His most accurate statement was "Reality is made of language" IMHO.

I assert there's no causal mechanism "attached" as novelty, at all, guiding anything. He found a correlation in data and painted a target around it and called it novelty. Thus, when 12/21/2012 hit and everyone just kept ordering pizza and watching the Kardashians, nobody was surprised.

I say all the above as a huge, huge, HUGE McKenna fanboi/mark. All of his books are right here on my shelf. I love his work; Novelty Theory is just something he felt way out of his element and skill set on. Stick to talking about taxonomy of souls, Terence.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." β€” Confucius

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Re: New Thoughts on Novelty Theory [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #29458017 -

It seems, QD, that we were correct about Complexity, information, and everything being connected in ways not yet fully described by any one single entity but by the whole of the universe, all at once.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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