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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 1
    #29095039 -

It's not pointless. It's just important to keep spores from the earliest generations, as well, incase it needs back crossed for diversity.

It's possible to see different expressions that might be worth chasing.

Like if it's adapting to an extreme of it's normal environmental conditions. Or selective breeding/ hybridization.

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #29095040 -

nektar61 said:
Janus62 said:
... I'm looking to set up my first martha.,,
Any suggestions for something 'in between' that will provide FAE without a lot of noise would be much appreciated. 
Thanks :-)


Almost no one does Martha tents here anymore. Most of the poeple growing fat canopies of shrooms are just doing tubs or shoeboxes.
/quote]

Cheers Nektar. 

Agreed, up until now, tubs have served me well.  Too well, to the point where I was composting good harvests. 

So I can continue the hobby without waste, I've started lions mane that I can share with others without getting busted.  However, everyone wants more and I can only fruit 2 bags at a time in tubs so I was thinking a 4 shelf martha woud take 8 with a similar footprint.

The only actives I see myself growing in the future are pans.  Again, they do well in tubs (thanks Baba Yaga - awesome tek) but the improved airflow & misting in a martha means I could run a couple of trays alongside the LM now & then.


--------------------
πŸ…ƒ πŸ„΄ πŸ„° πŸ„Ό    πŸ„² πŸ„» πŸ„Έ πŸ„½ πŸ„Ά πŸ…† πŸ… πŸ„° πŸ„Ώ

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LewDoja]
    #29095046 -

LewDoja said:
It's not pointless. It's just important to keep spores from the earliest generations, as well, incase it needs back crossed for diversity.

It's possible to see different expressions that might be worth chasing.

Like if it's adapting to an extreme of it's normal environmental conditions. Or selective breeding/ hybridization.


Ok, then Im finding bad intel. Ive seen it said that cloning a clone doesn't do anything except basically rerun that same culture. Im entirely open to the possibility that I misunderstood too, as I'm obviously paraphrasing here and cant cite the source.

Goes without saying that I trust what you share, Lew.

So is cloning a clone further reducing genetic diversity?

This shit kinda makes my head spin, honestly. 🀣


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 4
    #29095051 -

I’m grateful for this line of questioning πŸ˜…


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

:drugnerd: The TekDek v.2    Autist Tally :laugh:

:mushroom2:How to make a TEK:mushroom2:

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Tri] * 1
    #29095056 -

It's something like because of genetic drift(i.e. a recessive gene being bought forward, something during the cloning process triggering that) and senescence (Deterioration of the cultures vigor with age).

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Dkeppel] * 9
    #29095082 -

I just typed a bunch of shit hoping to clear up what doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not even sure I know how to ask what I need to ask.  Ive already been through all of this and probably just need to bite the bullet and find something in the advanced thread or buy a book or something. It's gonna take me half a day just to write down and define the words I dont understand, but whatever. It's just too much to wrap my head around by the time I get past a shit load of dikaryons fusing together on a germ plate and having a huge orgy with 150 dicks blowin spores all over a 6qt shoebox that I, a man with a GED, decided to put together bc "fuck yeah bro, mushrooms!"

I can at least wrap my head around the basics of animal breeding, but this is the equivalent to 1000 people mashing their genetics together and then having an orgy just to produce a bunch of kids that are going to do the same thing. Oh, and throw some cloning in there somewhere. 🀣🀣

Not tonight, Satan... Not tonight. Sweet dreams everybody. πŸ€™


--------------------


Hitchhikers Guide to The Shroomery

Shine on forever, shine on benevolent son
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 7
    #29095133 -

Quote:
by the time I get past a shit load of dikaryons fusing together on a germ plate and having a huge orgy with 150 dicks blowin spores all over a 6qt shoebox that I, a man with a GED, decided to put together bc "fuck yeah bro, mushrooms!"



Fk yeah bro mushrooms! :rockon:


Cloning tissue from  a single fruit body isolates a specific dikaryotic strain, reducing genetic variability and allowing for predictable traits like size, potency, or morphology.  However, a tub from  cloned tissue can still show variation  due to factors like: 


  • Dikaryotic Interactions: The two nuclei in the strain can express traits differently,  leading to phenotypic variability. 
  • Environmental Factors: Conditions like substrate, humidity, and light  affect gene expression. 
  • Epigenetics: Heritable changes in gene expression  caused by environmental pressures can create subtle variability  without altering the DNA itself.
 

Repeated cloning (clones of clones) can further refine traits , stabilizing desired characteristics,  and reducing variability.  AS seen with the TAT family (True Albino Teacher.)

However, it's often cautioned against due to potential genetic driftβ€”small mutations or changes accumulating over iterations that might reduce vigor, colonization speed, or fruiting potential. 

To mitigate risks, select clones only from strong,  healthy specimens and maintain spore prints  or master cultures as backups  too refresh genetic diversity as needed. 
Multiple iterations of cloning are just another tool for refinement or used for hybridizatio.  But should be balanced with careful observation and diversity management  to avoid long-term decline.

Quote:
Yetis_ghost said:
"The tat family tree..

Og tat..
The average cube shape with a true albino mutation ...coming from a unstable g.t grow

Wambat tat..
Dave Wombat isolated this variant from the same unstable g.t gentics

Yeti.
A slow growing mutation of tat...with a penis shaped fruit...growing a full canopy but small fruits first flush...then changing to far bigger fruits second flush.

Ghost
A slow growing mutation of tat...small fruits with a spoty pin set...first flush and second flush can over lap...with lots of aborts ...definitely not grown for its yeilds...but the potancy is far above average
.....-Jik Fibs



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27770024#27770024

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LewDoja] * 7
    #29095142 -

came for the mind blowing drug trip, stayed for the epigenetics knowledge :lol:


--------------------
Learn it, know it, live it


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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Mackload] * 4
    #29095144 -

Mackload said:
came for the mind blowing drug trip, stayed for the epigenetics knowledge :lol:



That's some fun, smart shit but I will point out to anyone following along that you can grow great potent shrooms without ever having even heard of any of it.

Just want to mention that since I've seen new growers get hung up worrying about it.


--------------------
--How to grow POPPIES.
--GROWING SHROOMS, FROM SPORES TO TRIPS
--x7x+ variety history.

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Dkeppel] * 5
    #29095145 -

Dkeppel said:
.... senescence (Deterioration of the cultures vigor with age).


Which I and others here have said time and time again isn't something most / all growers will ever run into.

If it was a big deal with this hobby, those strong shrooms with no stems like Enigma that are only spread by clones of clones of clones (etc) would not grow / be potent.

ThurmanMurman said:
.... But then I've seen that cloning a clone is pointless...



see my above comment in this same reply.

Cloning a clone is pointless if you're trying to chase genetic variations to play with, but it's good if you want to make more of a particular genetic set (pheno) you like.

Though cloning could be used to produce more of one you like to increase selection pool of ones to pick for selection (via spores) or crossing.

(Lew is talking about selection when he says "...selective breeding does, which is how new crosses are stabilized.")

If you get books (like you say you want), avoid Stamets, he states gueses as fact, in fact, a lot of the b.s. we clear up daily from new people on here is from him.

Roger Rabbit has a book that was good in its day but is very outdated.

McKenna brohers were groundbreaking, but their book is 25 years out of date.

Not sure who to suggest, I wouldn't go with any of them (which are still commonly praised). But if you're going for genetics, probably the newer the better. (same with just general mushroom growing.)

Oh, and for videos, that shroom grower on YouTube with the skull mask is full of misinfo.

I still would recommend not worrying about this stuff if you are still posting questions about not being sure if your grows are clean. Walk before you run.

What are you trying to do or learn with genetics?


--------------------
--How to grow POPPIES.
--GROWING SHROOMS, FROM SPORES TO TRIPS
--x7x+ variety history.

Edited by nektar61 (01/20/25 07:51 AM)

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 3
    #29095153 -

ThurmanMurman said:
LewDoja said:
It's not pointless. It's just important to keep spores from the earliest generations, as well, incase it needs back crossed for diversity.

It's possible to see different expressions that might be worth chasing.

Like if it's adapting to an extreme of it's normal environmental conditions. Or selective breeding/ hybridization.


Ok, then Im finding bad intel. Ive seen it said that cloning a clone doesn't do anything except basically rerun that same culture. Im entirely open to the possibility that I misunderstood too, as I'm obviously paraphrasing here and cant cite the source.

Goes without saying that I trust what you share, Lew.

So is cloning a clone further reducing genetic diversity?

This shit kinda makes my head spin, honestly. 🀣


I think you (Thurman, not Lew) are confusing growing / selecting with spores, with cloning. Two (or three) different things. Cloning is not needed for selecting. (or for crossing)

Agar isn't even needed for selecting (though it helps), Fhat crossed and selected varieties here for years and only got into agar last year or so.

If you want an example of what Lew's talking about with going back a generation with spores, read PastyWhyte's grow log of how the cube variety RustyWhyte was made.

He was selecting after crossing, but at one point he back crossed (which I did not do with x7x+, I was just selecting most robust growers from an already strong mutation, for 8 generations).

Back crossing is one reason to keep previous spore generations if you're selecting. Another is in case you get enmeshed contam you can't transfer away from. There are probably other reasons, including just archival curiosity.


--------------------
--How to grow POPPIES.
--GROWING SHROOMS, FROM SPORES TO TRIPS
--x7x+ variety history.

Edited by nektar61 (01/20/25 07:54 AM)

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman]
    #29095155 -

I see Lew gave a very nice answer to your question.
Speaking from personal experience, I've put in some effort in the past to stabilize (I know, jackalope) some albinos that showed up in a B+ grow. I didn't know jack shit back then and cloned once (albinos/ leucistic in 75 - 25 ratio), twice (just albinos, that didn't seem to sporulate), thrice (bendy albinos that looked like crap)... Ended up with small albinos that wouldn't drop a spore for me and tried to stick their caps in the casing. Ditched the entire project. Cloned them only three times but boy did they look inbred.
It's just anecdotal, of course, but ever since I clone once and keep it at that.


--------------------
No nation, no border
Fight law and order


Species grown so far

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: ThurmanMurman] * 4
    #29095161 -

πŸ’―  :whatshesaid: (Nektar)

I think the terminology has a little bit to with it... 
Quote:
So is cloning a clone further reducing genetic diversity?


No but selective breeding does, which is how new crosses are stabilized.
Cloning a clone does not reduce genetic diversity further because the genetics of the strain remain the sameβ€”the cloned tissue is genetically identical to its source. However, what CAN change over iterations is the expresion of those genetics

Key Points: 
* Cloning doesn’t inherently reduce genetic diversityβ€”it’s simply replicating an already isolated genetic pairing. 
* The appearance of reduced performance in successive clones is usually due to accumulated mutations (Genetic Drift) or environmental pressures, not loss of diversity. 

[b]Distinction:
*Genetic diversity refers to the variety of genes present. Cloning a clone doesn't reduce this because it replicates the same genetic material.
*Phenotypic stability refers to how consistently the genes express traits like size, potency, or morphology, which can be improved by selectively cloning from the best specimens over time.

Edited by LewDoja (01/20/25 07:36 AM)

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LewDoja] * 2
    #29095164 -

Ngl, the first half of that had me upset and confused, but by the end it makes perfect sense, very succinctly summarized

:kenthumbup:

I feel like I just downloaded a software update to my mushcult OS

Also kind of ridiculous how a concept can actually be so simple but the language around it can be confusing/nuanced/not-immediately-clicky-to-an-idiot-like-me :smile:


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

:drugnerd: The TekDek v.2    Autist Tally :laugh:

:mushroom2:How to make a TEK:mushroom2:

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Tri] * 1
    #29095168 -



--------------------
No nation, no border
Fight law and order


Species grown so far

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: Tri] * 1
    #29095170 -

Sorry I nerd'ed out, and probably made it worse.

I'll go confess after a another B-LOAD.

Not just you bro - I still confuse the terminology, and probably how this rabbit hole exploration started.
My bad

Edited by LewDoja (01/20/25 07:54 AM)

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: LewDoja] * 1
    #29095171 -

LewDoja said:
Sorry I nerd'ed out, and probably made it worse.

I'll go confess after a another B-LOAD.



haha. You crazy kids.

Back to senescence, I have a theory of why it's not an issue here. Most clones shared here are kept in a fridge for long term storage for much of their existance. Low temp slows down all physical / chemical processes of a living thing.

Sure you may mail it to someone and it gets to room temp or higher for a few days, but then is grown and kept in a fridge before sending to the next person.

Growing shrooms from spores should have no senescence consideration to speak of, in the same way senescence is not an issue for a baby, but is for an old person (like me, ha).

Each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines. (that CANNOT be separated out with naked eye into "monoculture" "sectors". In fact, someone did 80 transfers in a row here and it still kept sectoring. There are no "monocultures", at least not without a microscope.)

The fact that each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines is why the term "variety" is more accurate than "strain" for describing what RustyWhyte or TAT or x7x+ are. Those are varieties, not strains.

Each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines, and they're all strains. There are hundreds of thousands, or millions, of strains growing in your agar dish.


--------------------
--How to grow POPPIES.
--GROWING SHROOMS, FROM SPORES TO TRIPS
--x7x+ variety history.

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #29095178 -

nektar61 said:
LewDoja said:
Sorry I nerd'ed out, and probably made it worse.

I'll go confess after a another B-LOAD.



haha. You crazy kids.

Back to senescence, I have a theory of why it's not an issue here. Most clones shared here are kept in a fridge for long term storage for much of their existance. Low temp slows down all physical / chemical processes of a living thing.

Sure you may mail it to someone and it gets to room temp or higher for a few days, but then is grown and kept in a fridge before sending to the next person.

Growing shrooms from spores should have no senescence consideration to speak of, in the same way senescence is not an issue for a baby, but is for an old person (like me, ha).

Each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines. (that CANNOT be separated out with naked eye into "monoculture" "sectors". In fact, someone did 80 transfers in a row here and it still kept sectoring. There are no "monocultures", at least not without a microscope.)

The fact that each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines is why the term "variety" is more accurate than "strain" for describing what RustyWhyte or TAT or x7x+ are. Those are varieties, not strains.

Each time you grow from spores, you're starting many new genetic lines, and they're all strains. There are hundreds of thousands, or millions, of strains growing in your agar dish.


ACHTUALLY...


Study in that thread showed that the commercial spores within the community are VERY inbred, and every spore print taken from these lines is decreasing the genetic diversity. Now, that isn't necessarily a bad thing, we have consistent genes that produce well, but, it is not like a MS print from a cloned GT is going to provide many varied genes. The genetic diversity in that variety has already been narrowed down significantly.


On a similar note, it seems "a cube is a cube" is because basically everything is just a renamed GT strain. Vendors probably BSed a bunch in early days, Amazon, Ecuador, etc, are all GT, PE being an outlier, but also the MOST inbred.


--------------------
I call them Huskies cause they Mush!


Huskies' Grimoire
The Official Wild Cubensis Thread
Easy Instant Pot Agar
Let's Talk Cowtek

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #29095179 -

nektar61 said:
In fact, someone did 80 transfers in a row here and it still kept sectoring.


Eh-hem

I present….

…


Penis Envy Isolation!

written and produced by Verum Subsequentis
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=2&Number=24741888&fpart=&PHPSESSID=


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

:drugnerd: The TekDek v.2    Autist Tally :laugh:

:mushroom2:How to make a TEK:mushroom2:

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Re: Ask Quick Questions, Get Quick Answers [Re: whiski]
    #29095180 -




Waterproof computer fan pushing through a fogger tub into tent.
Your tent is roughly 16 cubic ft? The waterproof computer fans I use for circulation in a 10x10 about 90 cfm. Cheap Amazon junk.


Thanks for the reply whiski, it appeals to my ghetto mindset.  The AC Infinity CLOUDLINE would no doubt be far superior and I might well regret not investing in it yet (as I did when I finally surrendered and bought a Presto 23), but I'll try doubling up large computer fans first & see how well / badly they perform.

I'll report back when I know the answer.


--------------------
πŸ…ƒ πŸ„΄ πŸ„° πŸ„Ό    πŸ„² πŸ„» πŸ„Έ πŸ„½ πŸ„Ά πŸ…† πŸ… πŸ„° πŸ„Ώ

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