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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #28893803 -

DERRAYLD said:
I posted this some time back;



Innoculant farms for bacteria and mold.
I think they use a cereal based slurry but I could be mistaken.



:whattefuck2:
I thought that was one of your creations, D. I was scared.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #28893858 -

Those bags are pretty awesome though


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LAGM2020

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #28895175 -

DERRAYLD said:
:threadmonitor:



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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: codex143] * 6
    #28911489 -

I just wanted to share this here after burying it in posts elsewhere.

TLDR:
Dosing. 3:1 myceliated subtrop grain to subtrop fruit.

I just did 6 potency tests of various species including a blend of all of my subtrop myceliated grain as well as some subtrop fruit. It wasn't a well controlled experiment so this is just a quick and dirty analysis. But taking a blend of three jars of myceliated grain I got 3.52 mg/g actives per the QTest run through the colorimeter. The dried subtrop fruit blend from a couple of jars came in at 10.87 mg/g. Most, but not all, of the fruits were from the same "fast" line as the grains. I will do further analysis and continue to share my results comparing different lines and other myceliated grains. But I know that dosing with myceliated grains was a glaring unknown, so I wanted to share the preliminary information.

Caveat: This reading was higher than any with the colorimeter so far. The tests in the experiments in the OP are all done with millet that was prepared at the same time. The blend I just tested included some grown on wheat. I am not saying that is the cause of the difference. Just noting it here for further exploration. I would say that I am a scoffer about one grain being better than another for fruiting potency; but maybe there is something to it with myceliated grains?

And for fun I will redo some of the calculations based on these results.
Based on data so far:
Lets say it takes 60 to 90 days from grain inoculation to fruit or efficient grain myceliation.
So if a quart of grain yields an ounce of dry fruit or 175 grams of dry myceliated grain. Using the results so far I get:
28g dried fruit x 10.87 mg/g actives = 304.36 mg actives
and
175g dried grains x 3.52 mg/g actives = 616 mg actives

So we are getting about 2x the total active alkaloids in grain when compared to  fruiting in the same time line. Which beats my initial estimate on the end of the second page of this thread.

Okay, back to gummies. I have about a kilo of dry grain to boil, juice and reduce.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #28911548 -

That’s a pretty big increase especially for no work.


I’m terrible at math and way too stoned for this at the moment, but it seems like surface area of the grains would impact things with this. I assume millet would have more surface area by weight and produce the most mycelium.


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LAGM2020

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: A.k.a] * 2
    #28911591 -

I kind of thought that, but when you look at the dried grain, you see very little mycelium on the millet and much more on wheat. I can't say why, but it seems to be pretty constant.


I want to do some testing of other grains. I like millet and wheat and the blend of both. But I want to make my gummies gluten free/celiac friendly, so wheat is out. If millet does turn out to be a less potent source, I will need to find something else. I don't really want to go back to oats. So I guess I will see if I can source some rye. Need to get a little of each to do a side by side potency test in any case, now.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 3
    #28912255 -

The difference between mycelium on millet and wheat might have to do with the surface of the cooked grain? Cooked wheat seems softer, if you could mush it between your fingers, it'd form a paste. Millet's shell seems to stay more seed like with a smooth outer surface. Just a guess?

Your photos reminded me, I have bags of mycelium on WBR and pearled barley in the outside freezer from a while back that I should extract. Subtropicalis myc does like WBR and sorghum too, those might be other choices for gluten free/celiac friendly gummies? I think wheat, barley and rye are the big 3?

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #28912284 -

Right. That is my suspicion as well. Possibly something about the seed like shell is less digestible? With that in mind it seems like rice could be the ideal grain, but I am not that familiar with all of the different grains. So I am not even sure what WBR, barley, and rye actually look like in person. But I will soon.


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Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #28912300 -

You should be able to find bags of WBR at your grocery store, in the rice section. I'd recommend running it in bags, much easier to crumble.

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 3
    #28912460 -

I buy organic rye berries for stones.  I imagine it's easier for the mycelium to extract nutrients from than millet.  Which would probably make denser mycelium (surface area wouldn't be the only factor but also density).

I pay about $2 a pound which isn't cheap.  But I go for the organic since I'm making mycelium out of it. And feeding it to friends who mostly like organic.  I think it does have gluten though. Maybe popcorn is gluten free?

1% calcium carbonate and 1% gypsum is improving stone production a lot as well.  In oyster mushroom studies it was shown to prevent oxidation of an acidic metabolite, preventing invitro pH spikes and allowing more aggressive mycelial growth.

Getting on the grain spawn train likely as soon as I eat some bispo popcorn.  Hoping the alkaloid profile feels similar to fruits.  Fruiting and harvesting is a hassle 😂


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And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 4
    #28912464 -

YoshiTrainer said:
The difference between mycelium on millet and wheat might have to do with the surface of the cooked grain? Cooked wheat seems softer, if you could mush it between your fingers, it'd form a paste. Millet's shell seems to stay more seed like with a smooth outer surface. Just a guess?

Your photos reminded me, I have bags of mycelium on WBR and pearled barley in the outside freezer from a while back that I should extract. Subtropicalis myc does like WBR and sorghum too, those might be other choices for gluten free/celiac friendly gummies? I think wheat, barley and rye are the big 3?



I love pearled barley, I've probably grown More, bigger, Fuller flushes with that, than any other grain for spawn.

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: LewDoja] * 1
    #28912474 -

I think TCO that has the same feelings about pearled barley? The mycelium does like it!

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 7
    #28913346 -

Just pasting this here for anyone who is interested and for my future self.

All you need to know about grains


Top row: Spelt - Wheat - Barley. Middle row: Rye - Kamut - Oats. Bottom row: Quinoa - Millet - Rice.

This article will help you better understand the difference in various grains, whether they contain gluten or are gluten-free or are wheat-free.

Wheat free: Rice, wild rice, sweet rice, amaranth, barley, buckwheat, corn, kamut, millet, oats quinoa, rye, spelt, teff.

Gluten free: Rice, wild rice, sweet rice, amaranth, buckwheat, corn, millet, quinoa

Contains gluten: Wheat, rye, spelt, kamut, oats, barley, bulgur and cracked wheat, couscous

Contains wheat: Wheat, bulgur and cracked wheat, couscous


Spelt
Spelt is a precursor to modern strains of wheat. It can often be enjoyed by people with wheat intolerance. Spelt is higher in protein, fats and fibre and lower in gluten than wheat. It contains special carbohydrates, which stimulate the body’s immune system and increase its resistance to infection. Spelt is more easily digested and has a warming quality compared to wheat, which is cooling to the body. The best tasting breads, cakes and cookies are made with spelt. Spelt has very fragile gluten, which means that if it is mixed for too long it can collapse. Therefore the initial mixing time (when water is first added to the flour) has to be no more than 4 minutes. Once mixed you can treat the dough just like wheat dough.

Rye
Rye is higher in fibre and lower in gluten than wheat. Creating a sour dough is the best process to access all the nutrients in the rye grain. The long proofing of sourdough baking improves its nutritional value, because it contains lactobacillus, which is essential for proper digestion. Phytic acid is almost neutralized (Phytic acid reduces mineral metabolism). Rye sourdough bread stays fresh much longer then most other breads.

Oats
Oats contain avenin, which is a protein similar to gluten. However, research has shown that most people with coeliac disease can safely eat avenin. Problems can occur if oats are produced in the same place as wheat, barley and rye, as the oats can become contaminated with these other grains. Only oats which are uncontaminated can be eaten by people with coeliac disease. There are a very small number of people with coeliac disease who may still be sensitive to gluten-free, uncontaminated oat products. Oats are very nutritious – rich in protein, B-complex vitamins and high in calcium, potassium and magnesium. Lowers cholesterol, stimulates, thyroid function, mood enhancing.

Barley
The botanical name for Barley is Hordeum and in Roman times it was so highly thought of as a strengthening food that some of the greatest gladiators were called Horderarii, as barley was their staple food. Barley has been cultivated for longer than any other cereal, and barley bread was a staple food during Middle Ages. All forms of barley contain soluble fibre and beta glucans, which help the body to get rid of excess cholesterol. They also contain some of the protease inhibitors, which have a definite cancer-protective action. Barley is the ideal food for the relief of sore throats, gastritis and colitis and, like other grains, barley is mineral rich (calcium, potassium), also B-complex vitamins.
Gluten-Free Grains

Amaranth
Amaranth [Amaranthaceae] There are many varieties of this Aztec grain, which is related to spinach, beets and pigweed. Tiny seeds are commercially available whole, or ground into light brown flour with a nutty taste. Amaranth is porridge-like when cooked, with each granule remaining crunchy within the gelatinous, chewy cereal.  Although tiny, amaranth is a powerhouse of nutrients, high in protein and fibre high in vitamins and containing lysine, an essential amino acid absent from most other grains. Its flavour is slightly sweet and really good. Amaranth can also be popped like popcorn.

Buckwheat
Buckwheat [Fagopyrum esculentum] is technically a grass with triangular-shaped seed and black shells and in the same family as rhubarb. It can be used whole, cracked or ground into flour. Buckwheat is quick-cooking and strong flavoured. It is very nutritious and contains protein, B vitamins and calcium. The roasted variety is called Kasha

Corn
Corn [Zea mays] Maize, cereal plant native to the Americas. Kernels are largest of cereal seeds. Six major types are dent, flint, flour, sweet, pop and pod corns. Used whole or processed into a multitude of products including sweeteners, flours and oils. Famous for its use in polenta which is easy to make and versatile, and can be seasoned with other strong flavours, like pesto.

Millet
Millet is very nutritious – rich in protein, phosphorus, iron, magnesium, potassium, and B vitamins. Millet is alkaline, and therefore a stomach soother. It has a delicious, nutty flavour and is inexpensive, and quick cooking.

Quinoa
Quinoa [Chenopodiacum quinoa Willd.] pronounced “keen-wah is the nutritional super grain. Highest in protein of all the grains, contains all eight of the essential amino acids and is a good source of dietary fibre. It is higher in calcium than milk, and also contains iron, magnesium, potassium, vitamin E and several B vitamins. Uncooked quinoa is similar in size and shape to uncooked millet, but when it is cooked, quinoa expands up to five times its original volume and pretty circles form around it, like halos.. It tastes especially good mixed with rice (e.g. brown basmati rice). Quinoa is also available as flakes or it can be ground into flour. Quinoa adds moisture to baked goods.

Rice
Brown rice is the whole grain, with only the inedible hulls removed. It is high in carbohydrates, soothes the stomach and expels toxins. Long-grain is more separate and fluffier when cooked than short-grain, which is softer, stickier and chewier and has a nuttier flavour. Short grain rice is better for the nervous or frail person and cooler seasons than long grain. Whole brown rice is concentrated in B vitamins and therefore beneficial for the nervous system. Used also for diarrhoea, nausea, diabetes, and thirst. It contains Vitamin E, magnesium, protein, and fibre. Brown rice has more natural nutritional value than white rice, which is artificially enriched.

Wild Rice is not really rice, but an aquatic grass, wild rice is the only grain native to North America, traditionally known as manomen or “water grass”.  It was once a staple for the Native American tribes in Minnesota and parts of Canada, and still grows there. Black on the outside and tan on the inside, wild rice is chewy and has a slightly bitter flavour. This slim, dark grain has more protein than other rice.  It’s also rich in magnesium, B vitamins, potassium, and zinc and is a hardy food for cold climates- it cools the superficial tissues and concentrates warmth in the interior and lower body areas.It has a cooling thermal nature, is sweet and bitter in flavour, a diuretic and benefits the kidneys and bladder.

Tef
Tef [Eragrostis tef] (tef grass or teff) Very small black ancient grain of the millet family. Principal grain in Ethiopian bread (Injera), which is described as a soft, porous, thin pancake.Tef is especially high in iron and calcium.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: LewDoja] * 3
    #28913364 -

I was pretty excited about pearled barley but see that it contains gluten.:frown:
I have worked with quinoa in small batches (pf sized jars) before and it performed well but is prohibitively expensive at scale. So I keep coming back to brown rice. I liked how millet helped keep wheat loose and shakable, so I may look at that if I can't work out a clean prep for rice alone.

But to get back on topic, I plan to run a bunch of these different grains from the same culture once I am confident in their prep and then do some potency testing at say 60 or 90 days to see if there is a significant difference in grain spawn potency. If not, it will be down to which is easiest and cheapest to prep. If gluten free is possible with increased difficulty or cost it will just have to be a specialty product.

I could transition to bags for scale, but I have been cutting out as much plastic waste as I can, so I hate to take a step backwards there. I don't mind using plastic but do struggle with single use anything and especially plastic.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28913392 -

I feel like you're getting close to a major break through in terms of grain to potency. Can't wait to see more results.

Edit:Spelling


--------------------
15 year lurker

Edited by Meanwhile (08/16/24 01:42 PM)

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: Meanwhile] * 2
    #28913416 -

Ya, I think that the qtests and colorimeter are going to be game changing in helping us determine what really does and doesn't affect potency. This can only help us improve all of the teks, methods and procedures.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #28913524 -

Very cool link Rev but weird they don't mention sorghum. Goodluck!

"Sorghum grain is 72% carbohydrates including 7% dietary fiber, 11% protein, 3% fat, and 12% water (table). In a reference amount of 100 grams (3.5 oz), sorghum grain supplies 79 calories and rich contents (20% or more of the Daily Value, DV) of several B vitamins and dietary minerals"

If it helps, filter patch bags may be reused multiple times. At least the ones I use for low prep agar plates have been PCed dozens of times.

I can't wait to see what you come up with, gooduck!

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: YoshiTrainer] * 1
    #28937771 -

YoshiTrainer said:
If it helps, filter patch bags may be reused multiple times. At least the ones I use for low prep agar plates have been PCed dozens of times.




Good to know. Rice is a challange in jars, but I am liking sorghum so far.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #28937866 -

Yep I also put my media jar and syringes full of water in a bag to pc them and have used the same one for as long as I can remember.


I’ve got a bag of about 3 quarts of wbs that’s been colonized for around a month, I think I’m gonna take a scoop out and sample it soon.


--------------------
LAGM2020

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Re: Myceliated Grain Spawn Potency vs Time test [Re: ReverendMyc] * 10
    #28937950 -

The BIG FINALE!

Well sort of. I will continue with the testing with some other grains and to get better baseline measurements using the colorimeter from the start, which means starting over with a new grain I think. So lets call the the finale of phase one.
:wooyeah:

This batch was notably more blue than any previous jar on millet only. That may be significant to the unexpected results.

Final weight of the dried grain was 40g meaning that a total of 63% of the grain was consumed and converted to co2. The additional 5 grams consumed in the last 60 days seems to indicate that the mycelium is still growing and eating in the jar. So that seems to mean that 1 year is not the end of the life of a jar. Unfortunately, I am out of this batch of jars. So I will have to make more for the phase two and run it for longer to find if and when the mycelium stops eating. Assuming that the potency does continue to increase, it will require a longer test to find the point where that begins to decline. But why assume anything? On to the final potency results.

I skipped a step on the first test and when I discovered my mistake, I tried to redo that step and got a final potency is 5.38 mg/g. That seemed too far above the previous results, so I am running another test now. Hold please...
Shit. 7.78mg/g, but I suspect that my water bath was too hot. One more time and watch the temperature this time.
No mistakes this time and still getting a high reading of 9.44mg/g. This is so far off the scale compared to prior results that I am at a loss. I have retested using other samples from other grow fruits. They are all coming back consistent and in the normal range so I am forced to use these results and draw no conclusions until phase two.
Using the offset formula from before throws the curve of the graph out the window, but what can I do but report data? (9.44 - 1.79)/1.79 gives a 427% increase which is ridiculous. But even using the lowest result (5.38 - 1.79)/1.79 gives 200% increase. So I will chart that one.

So in conclusion, :shrug:
This jar was notably bluer that all of the others, but I can't say why the last jar is such an outlier.

I have several things that I want to test going forward. Different grains and blends; total actives in a grow off between fruiting and just myceliated grains from the same culture LI; testing some more pan cyan, cambo & bisporus myceliated grains; and comparing three lineages of subtropicalis that fruit at very different speeds for potency differences. Good thing the tests are sold in bulk now.

Thanks to all who played along.

Pix:

Pre shake, shaken, already beginning to blue, on the dehydrator tray, close up of blueing before the drying cycle


After dehydration and getting ready to test.


Myceliated grain before and after water bath on the left as well as some other fruit samples that were also tested (tamp, stones, slow subtrop fruits). Note that the grain was visibly more potent than the tamp and the stones.


First test???


Test 2 before, after and result


Test 3???


Final graph for phase one.

Updating the OP now.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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