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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28785327 -

Bardy said:
Yeah I don’t know about DMT, haven’t eaten it yet. But I can say that there’s no nausea with freebase harmalas.


Yeah idk about freebased DMT either, i've read that technically it should get converted into hcl by the stomach acid, but i've also read it may increase the nausea some, but idk i think a lot of people's assumptions about the nausea/vomiting aren't taking into account the properties of the Harmalas, as well as the DMT, themselves, which alone can cause nausea/vomiting, so it may be that DMT freebase encapsulated and taken orally will work fine regardless but i've just always read to convert it back into it's salt form for good measure. But for the Harmalas i always use them in freebased form because i like the versatility of being able to use them orally, or smoke them, or use them sublingually or nasally, and haven't ever had an issue with the freebased Harmalas orally, and only get nausea/vomiting from the Harmalas if i'm not used to them and take a big dose, so freebase doesn't seem to be an issue as far as nausea/vomiting or absorption goesime, even if i do a manske extraction on the Rue to get the isolated Harmaline/Harmine mix i still always convert to freebase in the end, plus sublingual freebased Harmala extract doesn't seem to taste bitter at all, i can put the powder in my mouth no problem, but Harmala hcl extract is definitely bitter lol.


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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Sabnock]
    #28785645 -

Sabnock said:
or use them sublingually or nasally,


Interesting. I could see it working when swallowed, but I would not have expected freebase harmalas to work sublingually or nasally. How is that?

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Icon]
    #28791980 -

Icon said:
My recommendation is to get harmalas in HCL form, so not freebase.


I recently ordered harmine freebase and used it only orally in capsules and it certainly worked, but the HCL I had in the past seemed to have a higher bioavailabity, or at least a rapid onset. Also, when a freebase is dissolved in acidified liquid it immediately becomes a salt (one person even IMs DMT this way*); something does not have to be dry to be a salt.**

On another note, everything but B. caapi tea is just nasty, even pharmaceutically pure harmine from China and chemical extractions of B. caapi. They're like third, fourth generation VHS recordings of B. caapi. I don't know what it is, but only B. caapi tea feels clean.


*For salt formation, I always go with making the acetate salt for making up sterile solns for IM administration. Making a salt of a weakish acid is probably best for penetrating membranes as it is only partially dissociated effectively giving some freebase DMT in soln (equilibrium between the salt and the unionized compounds), which will cross a lipophillic membrane far easier.

fastandbulbous, Aug 26, 2009, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/dmt-subthread-plugging-rectal.351164/page-6#post-7465884

**That being said, DMT is picky about its dry salts and the fumarate salt is one of the only salts that can effectively be dehydrated.


Icon said:
Interesting. I could see it working when swallowed, but I would not have expected freebase harmalas to work sublingually or nasally. How is that?


https://www.reddit.com/r/nasalsnuff/comments/1cfu9q9/comment/l1rjesh/


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AI Thread

Northerner said:
I agree psilocybin is smokable though.

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: s240779]
    #28792743 -

s240779 said:
On another note, everything but B. caapi tea is just nasty, even pharmaceutically pure harmine from China and chemical extractions of B. caapi. They're like third, fourth generation VHS recordings of B. caapi. I don't know what it is, but only B. caapi tea feels clean.



Have you heard about tetrahydroharmine? It's not present in rue, but in caapi it can be up to 50% of the alkaloid mass. I'm not sure what you mean by only caapi tea feeling clean, but for THH's sake I would choose caapi over rue any day. Harmine can be effective on its own for mao inhibition, but the THH adds SSRI effects; which sounds dangerous cuz you're not supposed to mix SSRI with MAOI. But I love it.

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Icon]
    #28793085 -

Icon said:
Sabnock said:
or use them sublingually or nasally,


Interesting. I could see it working when swallowed, but I would not have expected freebase harmalas to work sublingually or nasally. How is that?


Yeah, the freebased Harmala extract is actually rather tasteless straight in the mouth, the hcl extract on the other hand is really bitter in the mouth. As far as sublingual Harmalas go, to me it feels like a cross between oral Harmalas and smoked Harmalas, i've only tried it a few times but i wanna get back into it, same with nasal administration, you can definitely feel the Harmalas get absorbed into the bloodstream. Overall while i like all ROA's, i think i prefer oral Harmalas the most for it's longer duration and more stable effects, but i do enjoy smoking Harmalas from time to time and the sublingual/nasal routes were interesting to explore too. I'm not sure if there's any difference in absorption between freebased extract and hcl extract, but i think freebased extract seems to get absorbed pretty well ime.


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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Sabnock]
    #28793134 -

I like DMT (smoked) but do not want MAO inhibitors in my system which requires MAO.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28793312 -

It's temporary tho, I think technically harmalas are not even MAOI, that's just the reputation it's stuck with, but technically classified as RIMA. Idk, I think Sabnock knows better about that. Some people are prescribed RIMA/MAOI regularly for depression.

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28793440 -

redgreenvines said:
I like DMT (smoked) but do not want MAO inhibitors in my system which requires MAO.


Harmalas don't interfere with your MAO enzymes' ability to protect the body from excess tyramine. The diet for the relevant pharmaceutical MAOIs isn't even that strict because you need to get up to 100 mg of tyramine before toxicity is an issue; chances are you follow the diet anyway. See this post for details: https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/comments/1d06m90/comment/l5l808j/

The indigenous don't even diet for ayahuasca:

“I don’t diet before ceremony. Amazonians usually don’t either. It’s just a tourist thing and everyone makes up their own version. Eat healthy whole foods and skip alcohol - the rest is pretty optional.”

MapachoCura, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/hsV5OvqJdm

Sabnock, for example, has been using harmalas in heavy doses for 12 years. If something bad was going to happen to him as a result, it would have happened by now.

“You can even take the Harmalas regularly (been dosing them on a daily/near daily basis for 12 years myself in heavy dosages) and exactly an hour in when gut MAO-A is maximally inhibited (also the best time for consuming the DMT),”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/OnQ9l8j5Fr


And even if you did have to follow a strict diet on them, as Icon said, the effect is temporary. Why can't you live without MAO for a day? Why do you have to be so up-tight about it?


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AI Thread

Northerner said:
I agree psilocybin is smokable though.

Edited by s240779 (05/30/24 02:22 PM)

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: s240779]
    #28793571 -

'cause i have a few weird things going on and i'm  73 yrs old this year...
how old is sabnock?


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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28793586 -

And what evidence do you have that any of that relates to MAO enzymes? I don't think you know a damn thing about MAO enzymes. I've never heard that MAOIs are not recommended for elderly people, just that they're not recommended in general (for exaggerated, nonsensical reasons).

These hurdles cause doctors to shy away from using MAOIs, but they are largely illusory. The two most prominent seem to be (1) the misperception that there are frequent drug interactions and (2) that there is a major risk of ingesting excessive tyramine (Tyr). Neither hurdle is complex nor difficult to overcome if the latest scientific evidence is considered.

“Much ado about nothing”: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, drug interactions, and dietary tyramine. Gillman K. CNS Spectrums. 2017;22(5):385-387. doi:10.1017/S1092852916000651

It is, unfortunately, necessary to state clearly from the beginning that much of what is published by doctors in books and journals about MAOIs is either poorly informed, or just plain wrong. As an example, much of the information that comes with MAOIs (the PI, or product information sheet) contains inaccurate material concerning, among other things: serotonin toxicity, drug interactions generally, and dietary tyramine.

MAOIs (Parnate, Nardil): Misconceptions and Questions No. 1. Ken Gillman, MD. PsychoTropical Research. Nov. 14, 2012

This quote from that first article might be relevant to you:

They cause elevated BP and should not be used in patients suffering from hypertension (false, they lower BP and ameliorate hypertension), etc.


Harmalas are actually healthy for you. They've been shown to induce neurogenesis and protect against cancer: https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/comments/1apnxzk/findings_from_therapeutic_research/

So, contrary to your concern, they'd probably be particularly good for you.


They're also structurally similar to DMT (in fact, DMT metabolizes into 2 chemicals that are structurally related to the harmalas*) and are atypically psychedelic on their own:

Ayahuasca is the Quechua word for a vine known to Western people by its most common Latin name, Banisteriopsis caapi, historically used by many indigenous Amazonian tribes for shamanism, sorcery, divination, and healing. For those who drink ayahuasca, the vine is often perceived as a plant spirit that engages the mind, body, and spirit into a dialogue of personal understanding and healing. The primary ingredient in an ayahuasca brew is the vine Banisteriopsis caapi, commonly revered as the mother of all plants. Other plants are added to the vine brew, typically those containing DMT, such as Psychotria viridis or Diplopterys cabrerana, and also many other plants not containing DMT, called admixtures, whose capacities are considered to be activated by the ayahuasca vine. In the Amazon, there is no traditional understanding of the existence of DMT per se, just that adding DMT-containing plants such as Psychotria viridis will give the ayahuasca brew more ‘light’ and visionary depth. Yet, the vine is considered to be the primary component of the brew, and the DMT-containing plants and other plants are typically considered to be admixtures to the vine brew. It is possible to drink a strong brew containing only ayahuasca vine and still experience a visionary state, although DMT containing plants are normally required for stronger visionary states. (4. Ayahuasca. Introduction to Ayahuasca)

The drive to increase the DMT content in ayahuasca brews was largely instigated in the 1980s, when researchers such as Jonathan Ott and Terence McKenna went to the Amazon and could not find ayahuasca brews that would give them visions. DMT dosages that modern day ayahuascaros give to the gringos are in no way representative of the traditional usage of ayahuasca, where the visionary qualities of the medicine are respected, but not considered primary. (4. Ayahuasca. The Religion of Ayahuasca)

Articulations: On the Utilisation and Meanings of Psychedelics. Julian Palmer (2014).


Drinking Ayahuasca without DMT is Powerful and Traditional. Matteo Politi, PhD. March 31, 2020


*Tetrahydro-β-carboline and 2-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carboline. An alternate name for tetrahydroharmine shows the similarity: 7-Methoxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline

Barker SA, Monti JA, Christian ST (1980) Metabolism of the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine in rat brain homogenates. Biochem Pharmacol 29(7):1049–1057

Sitaram BR, McLeod WR (1990) Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies. Biol Psychiatry 28(10):841–848


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Northerner said:
I agree psilocybin is smokable though.

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: s240779]
    #28793878 -

He’s allowed to choose not to take them… I would be a bit sketched out by harmalas if I was 73 as well.


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"God is an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere."

Llamando la Mareacion

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Bardy]
    #28793912 -

I would take speed straight up, but at low doses, but I don't want maoi's, hahaha!


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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: redgreenvines] * 3
    #28793920 -

redgreenvines said:
'cause i have a few weird things going on and i'm  73 yrs old this year...
how old is sabnock?


I'm 34. As far as i can tell and as far as i know, Harmalas shouldn't be any issue, the only real issue with Harmalas would likely be like drug to drug interactions, as far as health issues go, i mean MAO-A inhibition can raise Noradrenaline levels some and so may slightly increase blood pressure/heart rate slightly, but they also have vasodilative and blood pressure reducing properties, and DMT is likely to be much more of a concern for the heart than Harmalas since DMT is way more Adrenergic especilally at the Alpha 1A receptor which like decongestants and such work on.


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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: s240779]
    #28793944 -

Hey come on he doesn’t need to take harmalas if he doesn’t want to. Like Bardy said, I’d be a bit concerned if I was 73 no matter what any science says. If I was 73 I wouldn’t be doing any drugs apart from maybe mushrooms


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“Everything has a life, it has its own life and is simply beautiful. Life now feels like a journey taking us into something so much bigger than ourselves. I’m in love with the world and its contents, I finally understand all of the people who love this and live for this. It’s so much more than just hallucinations for me, it’s an emotional and psychological journey. This is truly the most beautiful experience I’ve ever had.”

- Mr. TW, 28th of September, 2023

“You were born inside of a raindrop,
and I watched you fallin’, to your death,
and the sun, well she could not save you,
she’d fallen down too, now the streets are wet”

- Conor Oberst

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28793995 -

redgreenvines said:
I would take speed straight up, but at low doses, but I don't want maoi's, hahaha!


You've revealed yourself to be an idiot with that comment. MAOI fans actually believe that low dose meth is safe with MAOIs:

Curious to hear from people who have used meth, specifically, with MAOIs


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Northerner said:
I agree psilocybin is smokable though.

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: s240779]
    #28794108 -

“Safe”, as in you won’t die, but it’s probably bad for your cardiovascular system.

I agree that it’s strange that RGV would choose speed as the safer option over harmalas 😂 wouldn’t call him an idiot though


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"God is an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere."

Llamando la Mareacion

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Bardy] * 1
    #28794139 -

That's cool you're so old RGV! We must cherish our elders. I understand your caution now.

An alternative may be the HPBCD complex that Tregar has gone on about. It goes over my head but apparently HPBCD acts like an envelope for other drugs, like DMT, to pass the blood/brain barrier while avoiding stomach MAO. I think he was using the freebase complex sublingually.

Edited by Icon (05/30/24 08:52 PM)

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Icon]
    #28794311 -

I think he was also taking harmalas with it though


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"God is an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere."

Llamando la Mareacion

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Bardy]
    #28794324 -

Yea he was doing it all lol, but I think sometimes just the complexed FB on its own. I thought that was the whole point of doing the complex. About a 30 minute trip iirc.

I was going to suggest trying THH on its own though too, because it's supposedly an SSRI not an MAOI. I see Tregar mention that too, but wikipedia says otherwise so I don't really know.

Edited by Icon (05/30/24 10:53 PM)

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Re: Is DMT worth it? [Re: Icon]
    #28794367 -

It’s primarily a RIMA but has some SSRI action too I think from memory. Bit of a mix of the two


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"God is an intelligible sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere."

Llamando la Mareacion

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