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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27728556 -

Quote:
Also, Zelensky is stuck with those murderous thugs and has been forced into his current position knowing that if he try's to turn things around he risks getting a bullet in the head himself.


When we went into Iraq  there some terrorists there , but our invasion inspired a movement and it attracted freedom fighters from all over .  It wasn't long before the terrorism we were fighting was just being created by ourselves .
  That's the situation Putin is now , there were some Nazis when he invaded , now they are coming from all over the world to rebuild their ideal civilization from the ashes .
  The complete lack of critical thinking on display from the Russians and their cheerleaders is pretty astonishing .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (04/10/22 09:52 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #27728609 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, when you said "The elections in the Donbas happened in direct contravention of the Minsk protocol", I misinterpreted your statement to mean no elections were allowed, and then I saw that Minsk II did include a provision for local elections.


Sure, but this shows that you are talking extremely authoritatively about things that you actually have a very limited understanding of. Local elections were one of the most important parts of the Minsk agreement - the only reason you wouldn't know this is if you never read them until now. How can you talk about total disregard of the Minsk agreements, when you didn't even know what those agreements constituted?





Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I don't recall saying that only the Ukrainian state displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements.


"Russia has attempted a peaceful resolution for 8 years, and I think they're fed up with continued US/Ukrainian NATO threats, and total disregard of the Minsk agreements."

If that statement was supposed to include the breakaway regions, it's very poorly phrased. And you're still doing it by saying "Ukraine didn't want to stop the shelling" while "Donbas fought back".


"'Kramatorsk, Mariupol, Sloviansk will be ours. We are ready to capture them. Heavy battles are not excluded,' Alexander Zakharchenko, the leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, was quoted as saying on Thursday."

"The Minsk Memorandum (on Ukrainian settlement) will no longer be considered in the form it was initially adopted, Basurin also said."

"The main pro-Russian rebel leader in eastern Ukraine says his troops are on the offensive and he does not want truce talks with Kiev. Alexander Zakharchenko said his forces would push the front line back to the borders of Donetsk region. They are in control of the city of Donetsk."

"Zakharchenko, the separatist commander, has claimed that the Ukrainian-held city of Debaltseve, a strategic railway hub, belongs to the separatists and that the cease-fire doesn’t apply there. It has been the scene of the heaviest fighting in recent weeks, with an estimated thousands of Ukrainian troops surrounded on three sides by separatist forces."

"Before the ceasefire deadline, statements by separatist officials cast doubt on whether fighting would end at the appointed hour. Alexander Zakharchenko, the rebel leader in the city of Donetsk, was quoted by the RIA Novosti news agency as saying his fighters would not allow Ukrainian forces to escape Debaltseve. Separatists have said the Ukrainian troops there would be offered only the opportunity to surrender."



Both sides blame the other for the breakdown of the Minsk agreement, but fact is all relevant parties continually displayed disregard for the ceasefire, heavy weapons pull-out, and the Minsk agreement in general. That neither side is willing to compromise or act in good faith is one of the key ingredients for creating a long drawn out conflict.

I'm not surprised that people participating in the conflict might feel this way - it's one of the reasons why resolutions in these situations are so difficult to reach - but you display the same attitude by being absolutely unable to acknowledge that more than one side is responsible for dragging this conflict out.

What happened to "I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them" eh? It wasn't only the Ukrainian state which has displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements, right? So here's an exercise in honour of your sig - find something you can defend the Ukrainian state for, and share it here for everyone to see the bigger picture of things.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27728705 -

If I punch you in the face and you hit me back, is it my fault or both of our faults?  It's kind of like the argument with the Ukraine war - if you keep poking the Russian bear, should you be surprised if the bear finally reacts?

Many of the articles you just gave me said both sides were blaming each other.  Now, given all the evidence we've seen about how the Right Sector wants war, plus the video of them admitting "we have fun killing, and we have fun fighting", plus the video of them arguing with Zelensky himself to continue to fight, who are you going to believe?

People today are Nazi sympathizers, just like people of yesteryear were Osama Bin Laden sympathizers when he worked with the Mujahideen.  I'm not.  And I'm not sorry.

If you want to keep defending the Nazis and Right Sector, go right ahead.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/11/22 12:19 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27728742 -

Quote:
It's kind of like the argument with the Ukraine war - if you keep poking the Russian bear, should you be surprised if the bear finally reacts?



Who attacked Russian territory ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27728745 -

You said this: "I don't recall saying that only the Ukrainian state displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements."

And you also believe this: "I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong."

Now I'm asking you to prove both statements by giving an argument for how the breakaway regions displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27728751 -

shivas.wisdom said:
You said this: "I don't recall saying that only the Ukrainian state displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements."


Correct

shivas.wisdom said:
And you also believe this: "I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong."


Also correct.

shivas.wisdom said:
Now I'm asking you to prove both statements by giving an argument for how the breakaway regions displayed total disregard of the Minsk agreements.


As you previously noted, "The elections in the Donbas happened in direct contravention of the Minsk protocol".

This is kind of a dumb game to me.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27728763 -

That was my argument, not yours. One which you initially contested until I took pains to explain the Minsk agreement to you.

I assume "total disregard" would include more than one instance - your turn to find one.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27728780 -

shivas.wisdom said:
That was my argument, not yours. One which you initially contested until I took pains to explain the Minsk agreement to you.


No, I actually agreed with you, as I explained here.  But I misinterpreted what you were saying, and now I understand that I should not have agreed.

shivas.wisdom said:
I assume "total disregard" would include more than one instance - your turn to find one.


To me, bombing Donbas in violation of the Minsk agreements is "total disregard".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27728932 -

Gee, in how many instances did Ukraine 'totally disregard' the Minsk agreements? Maybe the first shell they fired after signing them or the ten thousandth one?

The first civilian they killed after signing them or the thousandth one?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27729103 -

Here's a VERY interesting read from Aaron Mate.  I'm not sure if a subscription is required to view it (I have a subscription), so let me know if you guys can access it or not.

Siding with Ukraine's far-right, US sabotaged Zelensky's historic mandate for peace
Quote:
In 2019, Zelensky was elected on an overwhelming mandate to make peace with Russia. As Stephen F. Cohen warned that year, the US chose to side with Ukraine's far-right and fuel war.
.
.
.
"Zelensky ran as a peace candidate," Cohen explained. "He won an enormous mandate to make peace. So, that means he has to negotiate with Vladimir Putin." But there was a major obstacle. Ukrainian fascists, Cohen warned, "have said that they will remove and kill Zelensky if he continues along this line of negotiating with Putin… His life is being threatened literally by a quasi-fascist movement in Ukraine."



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27729125 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here's a VERY interesting read from Aaron Mate.  I'm not sure if a subscription is required to view it (I have a subscription), so let me know if you guys can access it or not.

Siding with Ukraine's far-right, US sabotaged Zelensky's historic mandate for peace
Quote:
In 2019, Zelensky was elected on an overwhelming mandate to make peace with Russia. As Stephen F. Cohen warned that year, the US chose to side with Ukraine's far-right and fuel war.
.
.
.
"Zelensky ran as a peace candidate," Cohen explained. "He won an enormous mandate to make peace. So, that means he has to negotiate with Vladimir Putin." But there was a major obstacle. Ukrainian fascists, Cohen warned, "have said that they will remove and kill Zelensky if he continues along this line of negotiating with Putin… His life is being threatened literally by a quasi-fascist movement in Ukraine."



This victim blaming is over the top. Russia invaded Ukraine. It’s not complicated.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27729129 -

Here's an article from the New York Times that warned about the Far Right in Ukraine, before they changed their tune and decided Nazis are the good guys:

Armed Nationalists in Ukraine Pose a Threat Not Just to Russia
Quote:
Yuri Hudymenko said, he is ready to take up arms, but not necessarily against Russia. As the leader of Democratic Ax — one of dozens of right-wing or nationalist groups that represent a potent political force in Ukraine and are fiercely opposed to any compromise with Moscow — his anger will be directed at Ukraine’s government if it grants too many concessions in exchange for peace.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27729134 -

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
Also, Zelensky is stuck with those murderous thugs and has been forced into his current position knowing that if he try's to turn things around he risks getting a bullet in the head himself.


When we went into Iraq  there some terrorists there , but our invasion inspired a movement and it attracted freedom fighters from all over .  It wasn't long before the terrorism we were fighting was just being created by ourselves .
  That's the situation Putin is now , there were some Nazis when he invaded , now they are coming from all over the world to rebuild their ideal civilization from the ashes .
  The complete lack of critical thinking on display from the Russians and their cheerleaders is pretty astonishing .


Sounds like you’re finally coming around. Cool 😎

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27729191 -

Pretty sure nazi to Russia supporters means anyone who doesn’t support Russia. All of this hand ringing is very hollow, considering Russia is over run with far right nazis who are supported by the government. My friend was run out of Russia by neo-nazis supported by the government  because he is gay.

If I have to choose which nazis to side with it’s the ones that hunt down and kill Russian invaders in a country run by a Jew and not the ones that hunt down and kill gay people in a country run by a mass murderer

Edited by koods (04/10/22 06:04 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27729204 -

Someone needs to invade Russia to take care of their nazi problem


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27729250 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Is anyone still in denial of Ukrainian Nazis?


Who said there were no Nazis in Ukraine?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27729287 -

Putin's plan works like a well oiled machine again.
He's got everyone arguing about who's a nazi or not whilst Russian tanks roll around the Ukrainian countryside blasting on little old ladies riding bicycles.

:facepalm3:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: mycosis] * 2
    #27729390 -

But can we reallllly ever be 100% sure those aren’t really just Nazis disguised as old ladies?

:barbershreds:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27729532 -

Quote:
Who said there were no Nazis in Ukraine?



There are more nazis now than when Putin started .

Quote:
To be clear, not all in the far right adore Azov, which some see as having ties to Israel or Jewish funders. But since Azov publicly invited foreign fighters into its ranks on Feb. 25, the organization’s official Telegram chat group has been packed with messages from people in the United States, Britain, Germany, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland and other Western countries expressing interest in joining. Neo-Nazi chat groups and channels in various languages have echoed Azov’s calls. I haven’t noticed this level of movement-wide recruitment activity since the Islamic State declared its so-called caliphate in 2014 and sought sympathizers globally to join its fold.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/14/neo-nazi-ukraine-war/


                                                                                           


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Edited by Psilynut2 (04/10/22 09:00 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27729607 -

The mental gymnastics in some of the posts above are amazing.
Proving once again you don’t need a long neck to be a goose or a red nose to be a clown.

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