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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sweeper54]
    #27722996 -

sweeper54 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So civilians died during the fighting.  Is that surprising to you?


NO, your right civilians die during war.

But when you have a picture of a mass grave on the 31 of March, a day the Russians held that city, and when the grave was examined and found to contain bodies of civilians who were executed.

What surprises me is you are not able to accept the evidence, especially when you claim to be for peace.

You are a sad individual.


Playing devil’s advocate here, as I am wont to do, I’m sure fal has internalized the multiple instances of “US enemy does war crime” fall apart amidst after-the-fact scrutiny, like chemical weapons in Douma for example, and has preemptively decided that the Russians committing ghastly crimes during war would only help the NATO-aligned forces, and therefore wouldn’t actually happen. But like he said, this is war. Putin isn’t talking to every soldier through an earpiece, and even if he did we know he has no issue murdering political enemies. Like fal said, this is war and civilians die.  We (Western leaders) could leave Donetsk and Donbas and Crimea alone and the bloodshed would all but cease, but we aren’t going to do that because, despite the tidal wave of crocodile tears over events like Bucha, our leaders would rather see a million Ukrainians executed in the street before we accept another country dictating the terms of geopolitics in Eastern Europe.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27723018 -

God damn the arrogance to believe the Ukrainians are fighting for the benefit of the west. It’s really gross. It’s not always about you.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (04/06/22 08:28 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27723031 -

The irony.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27723079 -

koods said:
God damn the arrogance to believe the Ukrainians are fighting for the benefit of the west. It’s really gross. It’s not always about you.


US/NATO, the war party is deceptive and aggressive, and knew their acts in recent decade(s) would make an invasion likely, this also while knowing they would never directly defend Ukraine. Or, who knows, some frothing in the war machine maybe wants direct war with Russia. Concern for human suffering and integrity take a back seat.

Ukraine doesn't hold vital strategic interest for the US except in some fantasies of regime change, and major cha-ching for the makers of the war machine.

Edited by syncro (04/06/22 10:22 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27723107 -

I think the strategic interest for the US is in minimizing China's resources and maximizing the West's. And China has the same strategic interests in their movements. While Russia is much more isolated and looking to maintain control of resources that have historically been theirs yet have been increasingly politically tilting away. I don't think the US wanted Russia to invade. I could be wrong. But to me it really doesn't help with what I see as the strategic goal and is a big escalation. I do think the US wants to dominate the resource landscape as much as possible and prefers to do it politically when possible. Like most nations if they could. More resources = more economy = more power. Doesn't make the involvement right.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27723161 -

Quote:
US/NATO, the war party is deceptive and aggressive, and knew their acts in recent decade(s) would make an invasion likely, this also while knowing they would never directly defend Ukraine


Bullshit , you have to apply and be accepted into NATO , how is that aggressive ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27723183 -

koods said:
God damn the arrogance to believe the Ukrainians are fighting for the benefit of the west. It’s really gross. It’s not always about you.


Just because it’s in the West’s interest to beat down Russia doesn’t mean that’s why the Ukrainians are doing it. We armed the French resistance in WW2 as well, doesn’t mean the French were fighting FOR us, just that our interests were aligned. Pretty basic stuff.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #27723228 -

ballsalsa said:
Luckily they had Russia to liberate and defend them from NATO aggression


You do realize Russia never intended to liberate and defend Ukraine from NATO, right?  Just the opposite, they were defending themselves from NATO.

There are now documents and witness statements that reveal Ukraine was planning to retake Donbas in March.  We'll see what comes out of that, but I'm not going to make believe my facts like so many people here.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #27723234 -

iggyhiggy said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If you're aware of an investigation that includes both sides, I'm happy it's getting done, and I'd love to know your news source because I didn't see that information.


Source is UN

https://unric.org/en/un-calls-for-an-independent-investigation-on-bucha/?msclkid=ec108fafb58711ecb76e1320601ac132

the investigation is done by the International Criminal Court on both side of the line.


That doesn't say both sides are investigating Buchra.  It says the UN has staff in seven offices on both sides of the contact line.

I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that they are allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sweeper54]
    #27723242 -

sweeper54 said:
your right civilians die during war.

But when you have a picture of a mass grave on the 31 of March, a day the Russians held that city, and when the grave was examined and found to contain bodies of civilians who were executed.

What surprises me is you are not able to accept the evidence, especially when you claim to be for peace.

You are a sad individual.


What's with the make believe?  I told you already "The filling of these mass graves is well documented and filmed."  There's videos of the mass graves being filled with bodies of the casualties of war from both sides as it was happening.  No one complained about anything at the time.

You're clearly being misled by Western propaganda.

sweeper54 said:
let's play another of falcon's games

"The Russians are only shelling buildings with military personnel in them."

ALL the buildings in Mariupol have been shelled.

If every build shelled had military personnel in them there would have been enough combat power to throw the Russians out.


Or there would be a lot of dead Ukrainians fighters, which there are.

Mariupol was a disaster for the Azov battalion.  And hundreds of civilians complained about being held hostage by them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27723247 -

koods said:
God damn the arrogance to believe the Ukrainians are fighting for the benefit of the west. It’s really gross. It’s not always about you.


Soldiers fight when they're ordered to fight, and they stand down when they're told to stand down.  You've probably never been in the military and you don't understand this.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27723251 -

Psilynut2 said:
Bullshit , you have to apply and be accepted into NATO , how is that aggressive ?


Were you not aware that NATO has already been training Ukrainians to fight with them?

Ukraine holds military drills with U.S. forces, NATO allies


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723269 -

So what?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723363 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Were you not aware that NATO has already been training Ukrainians to fight with them?

Ukraine holds military drills with U.S. forces, NATO allies


YAVORIV, Ukraine - Sept 20, 2021 (Reuters)

Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops on Monday

A Ukrainian defence ministry spokesman said 4,000 Ukrainian troops and 2,000 foreigners would participate in "RAPID TRIDENT - due to run until Oct. 1.

In June, Ukraine, the United States and other allies held a naval exercise, Sea Breeze, in the Black Sea and southern Ukraine

In July, Ukraine, the United States, Poland and Lithuania held another drill

- - - - - - - -

Lot's of fuel for the fire!

The results shouldn't surprise anyone.

Many knew this would likely bring war.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #27723364 -

We’ve been training the Ukrainian military for years. So what?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723526 -

Quote:
Were you not aware that NATO has already been training Ukrainians to fight with them?


  Of course ! It was special operation ! 
 
Hey  I'm a little curious , do you know the difference between the words cooperation an annihilation? It's the same difference between shit and shinola.  I'll explain it to you if you like .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (04/06/22 05:06 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27723567 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
God damn the arrogance to believe the Ukrainians are fighting for the benefit of the west. It’s really gross. It’s not always about you.


Soldiers fight when they're ordered to fight, and they stand down when they're told to stand down.  You've probably never been in the military and you don't understand this.


It's really not that simple. Order soldiers to fight an unpopular war and you get fragging, like in Vietnam. Order soldiers to stand down when they want to fight and you get splinter groups, like the history of the IRA.

Especially since it also isn't so simple as having a hard line in eastern Ukraine where Ukrainian nationalism ends and separatism begins -  no matter how the cards fall now, there will be significant portions of the population who won't feel satisfied; and given how the last decade has played out in the region, almost certainly there will be substantial portions of the population willing to continue fighting for their 'homeland' as rebels - whether that means ethnic Ukrainians fighting to recapture the east or ethnic Russians continuing to fight for independence.

That's the nature of border conflicts. Human culture is a blended spectrum as you travel across the world, while national borders operate as hard dichotomies - Fully Ukrainian here, one step to the east and boom! Fully Russian. The problem isn't that the border is 100km too far east, it's that a border exists at all! You'd think Northern Ireland would have taught us these lessons already - decades of military occupation and armed rebellion didn't solve shit. You know what did? The Belfast Agreement.



The agreement acknowledged:

- That the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom
- That a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland, and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland, wished to bring about a united Ireland.
- Both of these views were acknowledged as being legitimate.
- The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and would remain so until a majority of the people both of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. Should that happen, then the British and Irish governments are under a binding obligation to implement that choice.
- Irrespective of Northern Ireland's status, the right of the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both (as well as their right to hold British or Irish citizenship or both) was recognised.



That's how you deescalate this type of border conflict - not by using military might to force a unilateral border status quo.

Talking about which entity is most guilty isn't even very helpful - British colonialism had a huge impact on the situation in Northern Ireland, but accepting the current status quo of NI in the UK was still the best place to start. In Ukraine, the situation is even less clear because both Russia and the USA have dirty hands in the region - all the more reason to accept the status quo of Ukrainian territorial integrity, and then move forward by agreeing on a process for varying levels of autonomy and independence, all the way up to absorption into the Russian state.

But nothing that the Russian state has been doing - from the unilateral annexation of Crimea, to providing material support to separatist rebels, all the way to military invasion - has been with the intention of deescalation for the benefit of the people of east Ukraine. You don't need to defend the Russian state in order to deligitimize the USA - there is no reasonable justification for this war. Even if every claim that Russia has made was true, humanitarian corridors and international observers would have been the choice of deescalation until all opponents could agree on a process to recognize territorial sovereignty. It should be so easy to unambiguously denounce this act of aggression by the Russian state, instead of getting into some convoluted defense intended to demonstrate American hypocrisy.

Koods is right in this case - approaching Ukraine like some geopolitical chessboard between Russia and the USA is the height of arrogance - especially if it gives you conclusions like "Western leaders could leave Donetsk and Donbas and Crimea alone and the bloodshed would all but cease." The fruits of spending too much time trying to understand things from Russia's monolithic perspective - not enough time trying to understand the various sometimes-contrasting perspectives held by the people who live in the region.


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/06/22 07:00 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27723640 -

shivas.wisdom said:
You would think Northern Ireland would have taught us these lessons already. Decades of military occupation and armed rebellion didn't solve shit. You know what did? The Belfast Agreement.



The agreement acknowledged:

- That the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom
- That a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland, and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland, wished to bring about a united Ireland.
- Both of these views were acknowledged as being legitimate.
- The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and would remain so until a majority of the people both of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. Should that happen, then the British and Irish governments are under "a binding obligation" to implement that choice.
- Irrespective of Northern Ireland's status, the right of the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both (as well as their right to hold British or Irish citizenship or both) was recognised.

That's how you deescalate this type of border conflict - not by using military might to force a unilateral border status quo.


I agree!  And we already know what the people in the disputed areas want.  In 2014, 96% of those in Crimea voted to join Russia, and 89% of those in Donbas voted for independence.  Russia wanted to give it to them, the US and Ukraine didn't.

shivas.wisdom said:
But nothing that the Russian state has been doing - from the unilateral annexation of Crimea, to providing material support to separatist rebels, all the way to military invasion - has been with the intention of deescalation for the benefit of the people of east Ukraine.


What do you mean "unilateral annexation"?  The US helped mainland Ukrainians topple their elected Government, and ONLY THEN did Crimea and Donbas vote to leave.  Everything Russia is doing right now is supported by the vast majority of the people in Donbas and Crimea.  I showed a video of the celebrations in Donbas, but YouTube censored it.

shivas.wisdom said:
Nothing the Russian state has done is defendable. There is no reasonable justification for this war. You don't need to defend the Russian state in order to deligitimize the USA.


You don't see why Russia might be be upset about US imperialism continuing right up to their borders while they've been asking for it to stop?  They're not even trying to take Ukraine, they're trying to give the people in Crimea and Donbas what they WANT.

shivas.wisdom said:
Even if every claim that Russia made was true, humanitarian corridors and international observers would have been the choice of deescalation until all opponents could agree on a process to recognize territorial sovereignty.

It should be so easy to unambiguously denounce this act of aggression by the Russian state, instead of getting into some convoluted defense intended to demonstrate American hypocrisy.


Do you seriously think the US and Ukraine would just allow the Ukrainian people to decide to leave Ukraine for Russia?!?  SERIOUSLY!?!?!  They've already tried it, and we know the US/Ukrainian response.  :facepalm:

shivas.wisdom said:
Koods is right in this case - approaching Ukraine like some geopolitical chessboard between Russia and the USA is the height of arrogance - especially if it gives you conclusions like "Western leaders could leave Donetsk and Donbas and Crimea alone and the bloodshed would all but cease."


Giving up Crimea and Donbas would allow the war to end, and make the vast majority of people in those regions very happy.  Of course there would be a lot of butt hurt mainland Ukrainians and beltway politicians that would rather the killings continue than give up the territory, but should we really care?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723712 -

I'm not doing regime change, I'm giving the people in Afghanistan what they want. We'll be greeted as liberators...

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27723756 -

I never thought  I would say to be fair to Dick Cheney , but he had a justifiable reason for saying that , that's how they greet all their invaders .

Quote:
As the unpopular warlords who had controlled the city fled before the Taliban advance, the people of Jalalabad threw flowers, food, and money at the militia, praying that peace might at last be restored


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/amphtml/1996/0920/092096.intl.intl.2.html


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