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OfflineLearyfan
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"They hate our freedoms" * 1
    #2686682 - 05/16/04 03:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I was listening to the new David Cross cd and he made a good point. I'll have to paraphrase since I don't have the disk in front of me to listen to.

"If they really hated our freedoms, The Neitherlands would be dust by now and so would England, Canada, Switzerland and every other country that are actually more free than we are.

You know why I think Bin Laden attacked us? I believe it's because of our close ties to Isreal and the Saudi royal family. You know why I believe that? You know why? CAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE FUCKING SAID. 'They hate our freedoms'? What are we, a nation of six year olds??"

Comments?




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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2686782 - 05/16/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

so true. i think it's a valid point

and funny in that cynical bill hicks type style.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2686815 - 05/16/04 04:33 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Ya, I think Bill Hicks was a major influence on David Cross. I almost see David as picking up where Bill left off.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2686894 - 05/16/04 04:47 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Bill wasn't the first either guys. Don't forget Lenny Bruce and especially George Carlin. But anyway, that David Cross cd is great. Here's two more paraphrased quotes from the cd........

"That's not impressive. Trying talking your girlfriend into getting her third consecutive abortion. That takes finesse."

"(talking about the song "Proud To Be An American") He wrote that song for the first Gulf War. It goes 'I'll surely(he meant "gladly") stand up, next to you and defend her still today'. Well here's your chance asshole. Put your money where your mouth is."

:lol:













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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



Edited by Learyfan (03/27/15 01:22 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2687555 - 05/16/04 06:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Just in case somebody hasn?t seen this yet:



He was on Laght night, or The Late Show once talking about people who go to protests dressed as rapping clowns, and blowing bubbles, and who seem to just be there to have a good time.

He said something like "Nobody cares what dancing robots think about world issues."

HAW! so true. People who want to protest something should come to protests all serious and shit and then dress up like birds and whatever.


Here?s the only reference I could find to the interview:


http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/muldoomstone/Cross(110902).html

Yeah, probably not. You said something interesting on Conan O?Brien the other night about being at the anti-war rally in D.C. ?

DC: Yeah.

And it reminded me of something I heard a college professor say once. He said whenever you see all that great footage of protesters protesting the Vietnam War in the sixties, you have to realize just how many people were there just do pick up chicks.

DC: Right. And to just be annoying. And it was even more than that, just the big party atmosphere of the whole thing.

Was that the biggest rally you had ever been to?

DC: Nope. I?ve been to a bunch of rallies. I guess the biggest one I ever went to was in the late eighties, a big pro-choice rally, and there must have been like, I don?t know, half a million people?

What do you think the reason is behind the whole absurd, comic-theater aspect to a huge rally like that? Is it because people have been conditioned to think that protesting is not something that ?normal? people do?

DC: No, I think ? I mean, do you mean the perception of it, or the people that show up?

Either or.

DC: I think most of them of very well intentioned, they just may not be looking at the bigger picture a lot of times. You know, any protest march is going to have wildly divergent factions in it. There?s going to be radical right-wing Christians there, because the war goes against their religious beliefs, and there?s going to be radical left-wing ecology guys, and they?re kind of coming together to protest this war, but individually ? there?s always this large, disparate, mass of people that are all yelling to be heard. And they?re not only yelling it at the White House, but they?re yelling it at each other. I think if you looked at the bigger picture, there are more effective ways of getting a point across.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2688645 - 05/16/04 10:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If referring to Al Qaeda, than yes they do hate us for our freedoms because we do not practive the strict version of Islam that they demand. The only government ever to implement their preferred worldview was the Taliban. It should not matter if we have troops in Saudi Arabia, but it does because we are 'infidels', non-believers, and it is the duty of all true Muslims to kill and destroy non-belivers as stated in Sayyid Qutb's "Milestones", the centerpiece of Islamic fundamentalism for the last 40 years.
Bin Laden has said the same thing. Al Qaeda are not leftists, they are Islamic fundamentalists and have stated their goal is total victory over all infidels.
As for Israel, the issue means little to Bin Laden save for a way of gaining support among Arabs and easily manipulated left-wingers. That issue is more pertinant to Arab opinion at large and Palestinian terrorists. Arab countries without free press brainwash their people into blaming the world's evil on Israel, inciting hatred and violence. The US should not have to betray them to cater to a bunch of ignorant zealots.
The US is the dominant world power and the largest export of 'heresy' and non-Islamic ideas to the world. Because of we are a symbol of dominant Western culture we are the prime target. However, MANY other countries have been targeted by Al Qaeda.


Edited by Divided_Sky (05/16/04 10:45 PM)


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2688679 - 05/16/04 10:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

being hated for exporting homogenous capitalist
culture globally and being hated for freedoms are
two totally seperate things.

there are a bevy of other nations out there with
more political, social, financial and religious freedoms
out there...the main difference is that Switzerland
and Holland don't have military bases around the
globe or a pension for propping up regimes that like
to play ball.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: afoaf]
    #2688728 - 05/16/04 10:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well seeing that the Western concept of freedom is nearly the antithesis of fundamentalist Sharia, I can say they hate us for our freedoms. They hate our culture because we reject a rigid fundamentalist law, which prohibits almost all freedom. Case in point: Afghanistan, where until recently music was outlawed.

As for countries like Switzerland an Holland, they are smaller and draw less attention. However, I would not assume that Al Qaeda loves those countries either. They have recieved their own threats. The smaller nations are peripheral to the Islamacists struggle and matter less than the US.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2688753 - 05/16/04 10:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I know the US Christian Right hates for us to have our freedoms: from sexual preference, to what drugs we imbibe to abortion to even what we wear and what words we use.

Killing is rare, but prison is certainly a form of terror, and is applied with greater fequency here than in any country that ever existed.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Swami]
    #2688893 - 05/16/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure they love homosexuals in Afghanistan.

They probably give them free ice cream and shit.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2688933 - 05/16/04 11:26 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Well seeing that the Western concept of freedom is nearly the antithesis of fundamentalist Sharia, I can say they hate us for our freedoms. They hate our culture because we reject a rigid fundamentalist law, which prohibits almost all freedom. Case in point: Afghanistan, where until recently music was outlawed.



Having your own standards is different from hating the others for having theirs.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2689008 - 05/16/04 11:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's not as simple as them hating the west because of it's "freedom"; terrorists are however enemies of civilization. You have taken an equally ignorant stance like that of Michael Savage, who believes this war on terror can only be won by nuking an Arab city; comparing the situation to that of Japan in World War II. I don't need to go into Michael Savage or Arab haters/Islamophobes, myself, as well as many other Muslims have simply gotten used to them. I am a Muslim, I have been one for nearly 3 years now and in that time you normally get to know the culture fairly well. Not once did I assert to myself a radical interpretation of Islam; I have been confronted by fanatics in the past who urged me not to speak ill of "my brothers" fighting for the Muslim Ummah around the world - however, even they would stop at the political struggles in Chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine while remaining weary of what they brushed off as "hardline resistance", i.e., suicide bombings against civilians. I have even heard two Muslims discuss what makes a person a legitimate target of a military operation. One of them felt all Israelis were guilty of occupation, the other felt only the military was. These are always young Muslim men who are by-products of a reverse Conservative uprising in Muslim youth. Today, young Muslims are more Conservative than their parents. Few Muslims actually buy into the fanatical rhetoric of Muslim fascists from the Third World - rhetoric that often reflects the desperate situation and desperate measures of a select few Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are in reality moderate literalists who have become exhausted by the loud noise of militant Islam. Any normal person could see that only a desperate psychopath drenched in politics could fly an airplane into a skyscraper or behead a defenseless young man. Few people seem to actually acknowledge the tons of in-fighting between Muslims. From Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia to Pakistan and Indonesia, thousands of Muslim moderates are fighting with Muslim extremists. As such, emotions run high and before you know it you have simply confusing violence when someone blows up a group of Shia Muslims in the name of Allah. Simply put, the rest of Islam is exhausted - I am too. When I first converted to the religion I would make an ardent towards others against violence committed in the name of Islam; I mean, I knew these acts weren't Islam - whatever controversial aspects did exist in islam for me, it was and always will be a religion of Mercy. As the months went by, attack after attack would occur - each one burned in my mind. Eventually you come to the tragic conclusion that alot of people are going to hate Islam and believe it is nothing but a religion of bloodshed regardless what is said by the Muslim moderate majority. Once in awhile I'll try to refocus Islam for someone willing to listen, someone who might appreciate the attributes in Islam that reflect "Allah, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate."

Hate Islam, hate Arabs, whatever - as annoying as most Muslims are to me in their whining and complaining about racism; they do have one point - that Muslim blood is somewhat cheap in the War Against Terrorism - and that's by their own standard where a difference doesn't make a difference, whether innocent Muslims are killed by a U.S. bomb or they are executed by a corrupt coalition soldier. To most Muslims Islam has and always will be a religion of peace and mercy. I couldn't think of a greater mercy to myself when I became a Muslim. They're simply tired of this senseless clashing of cultures and the loud noise a few hooded thugs can make. Have you ever read any of the works of Rumi? "O Love once forsaken!" or "Buttermilk"? Believe me, underneath all the worldly jargon in Islam of haram/halaal, there is nothing but pure Love and Compassion in the core reality of the faith. Allah is afterall, the "Beloved" to Muslims. I am just a lover.


--------------------


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Zahid]
    #2689098 - 05/17/04 12:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
It's not as simple as them hating the west because of it's "freedom"; terrorists are however enemies of civilization. You have taken an equally ignorant stance like that of Michael Savage, who believes this war on terror can only be won by nuking an Arab city; comparing the situation to that of Japan in World War II. I don't need to go into Michael Savage or Arab haters/Islamophobes, myself, as well as many other Muslims have simply gotten used to them. I am a Muslim, I have been one for nearly 3 years now and in that time you normally get to know the culture fairly well. Not once did I assert to myself a radical interpretation of Islam; I have been confronted by fanatics in the past who urged me not to speak ill of "my brothers" fighting for the Muslim Ummah around the world - however, even they would stop at the political struggles in Chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine while remaining weary of what they brushed off as "hardline resistance", i.e., suicide bombings against civilians. I have even heard two Muslims discuss what makes a person a legitimate target of a military operation. One of them felt all Israelis were guilty of occupation, the other felt only the military was. These are always young Muslim men who are by-products of a reverse Conservative uprising in Muslim youth. Today, young Muslims are more Conservative than their parents. Few Muslims actually buy into the fanatical rhetoric of Muslim fascists from the Third World - rhetoric that often reflects the desperate situation and desperate measures of a select few Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims are in reality moderate literalists who have become exhausted by the loud noise of militant Islam. Any normal person could see that only a desperate psychopath drenched in politics could fly an airplane into a skyscraper or behead a defenseless young man. Few people seem to actually acknowledge the tons of in-fighting between Muslims. From Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia to Pakistan and Indonesia, thousands of Muslim moderates are fighting with Muslim extremists. As such, emotions run high and before you know it you have simply confusing violence when someone blows up a group of Shia Muslims in the name of Allah. Simply put, the rest of Islam is exhausted - I am too. When I first converted to the religion I would make an ardent towards others against violence committed in the name of Islam; I mean, I knew these acts weren't Islam - whatever controversial aspects did exist in islam for me, it was and always will be a religion of Mercy. As the months went by, attack after attack would occur - each one burned in my mind. Eventually you come to the tragic conclusion that alot of people are going to hate Islam and believe it is nothing but a religion of bloodshed regardless what is said by the Muslim moderate majority. Once in awhile I'll try to refocus Islam for someone willing to listen, someone who might appreciate the attributes in Islam that reflect "Allah, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate."

Hate Islam, hate Arabs, whatever - as annoying as most Muslims are to me in their whining and complaining about racism; they do have one point - that Muslim blood is somewhat cheap in the War Against Terrorism - and that's by their own standard where a difference doesn't make a difference, whether innocent Muslims are killed by a U.S. bomb or they are executed by a corrupt coalition soldier. To most Muslims Islam has and always will be a religion of peace and mercy. I couldn't think of a greater mercy to myself when I became a Muslim. They're simply tired of this senseless clashing of cultures and the loud noise a few hooded thugs can make. Have you ever read any of the works of Rumi? "O Love once forsaken!" or "Buttermilk"? Believe me, underneath all the worldly jargon in Islam of haram/halaal, there is nothing but pure Love and Compassion in the core reality of the faith. Allah is afterall, the "Beloved" to Muslims. I am just a lover.




Good post. :thumbup:


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2689214 - 05/17/04 12:29 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

ditto  :thumbup:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2691054 - 05/17/04 01:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

once again I'll ask you to back up your wild claims...

As for countries like Switzerland an Holland, they
are smaller and draw less attention. However, I would
not assume that Al Qaeda loves those countries either.
They have recieved their own threats.


please cite factual information that indicates that any
of these 'freer nations' have recieved threats from
al queda or al queda related terrorist groups.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2691301 - 05/17/04 03:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I can't trust anything you say or display. Hitler never had a low-rider Impala...  :rolleyes:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Swami]
    #2691398 - 05/17/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

A VW Beetle would be better.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2691415 - 05/17/04 03:32 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

can you make his arm go up and down
in unison with the car...?

that would be sick.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: afoaf]
    #2691431 - 05/17/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
can you make his arm go up and down
in unison with the car...?

that would be sick.




:lol: The thought of that cracks me up.


BH, you've outdone yourself again.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: "They hate our freedoms" [Re: Learyfan]
    #2691452 - 05/17/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:




I always thought it was funny to see a black guy like Colin Powell portrayed as a Nazi, even if he is a black Republican.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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