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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living?
    #2540418 - 04/08/04 07:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

According to The Heritage Foundation (a conservative think tank - link ) the following countries rank higher than the United States in economic freedom:
Hong Kong
Singapore
New Zealand
Luxembourg
Ireland
Estonia
United Kingdom
Denmark
Switzerland

According to Reporters Without Borders ( link ), the following countries rank higher than the United States in press freedom:
Finland
Iceland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Ireland
Germany
Portugal
Sweden
Denmark
France
Australia
Belgium
Slovenia
Costa Rica
Switzerland

According to Nationmaster.com ( link ) the following countries rank higher than the U.S. in Civil & Political Liberties:
Netherlands
Switzerland
Sweden
Canada
Portugal
Australia
New Zealand

According to Nationmaster.com ( link ) the following countries rank higher than the U.S. in Democratic Institutions ratings:
Netherlands
Japan
Switzerland
Belgium
Sweden
United Kingdom
Papua New Guinea
Canada
Poland
Germany
Portugal
Mongolia
Australia
New Zealand

Shouldn't these countries be more appropriate targets for Muslim terrorists because of jealousy over their greater freedoms and their way of living?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2540442 - 04/08/04 07:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Muslims don't have internet stupid.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2540444 - 04/08/04 07:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Netherlands had better watch their ass...


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2540448 - 04/08/04 07:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:blush: Oops, you're right.  The U.S. ranks number one in internet connectivity (I think - 70% of households).


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2540455 - 04/08/04 07:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2540456 - 04/08/04 07:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Muslims don't have internet stupid.



Yes they do.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2540468 - 04/08/04 07:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

THeir links don't work.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2540472 - 04/08/04 07:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Now they do.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2540486 - 04/08/04 07:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Thats the only reason they hate America? Cause of our supposed political, economical, democratic freedoms?

I think its a little more complex than that :wink:


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What?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2540495 - 04/08/04 07:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

2 out of 3 people who responded to the poll "A year after the toppling of Saddam do you think the US was right to lead the invasion of Iraq? responded no. I wonder if that poll is only amongst english speakers, or those of all languages.


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OfflineKommunist
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2541262 - 04/08/04 11:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

America is a shit hole

Why would they be jealous?


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Join The American Communist Party


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2541301 - 04/08/04 11:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
2 out of 3 people who responded to the poll "A year after the toppling of Saddam do you think the US was right to lead the invasion of Iraq? responded no. I wonder if that poll is only amongst english speakers, or those of all languages.



Neither would surprise me. Remember who Al Jazeera's core audience is.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2541359 - 04/08/04 11:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

there was something dr rice said today during
her testimony...

something to the effect of

"they attacked us because of who we are"

I was thinking about this statement while I was
driving home today...who are Americans?

if this statement is true, what is it about who
we are that would drive these people to target
innocent civilians to the degree that they did.

it's silly to think that people would believe that
anyone would go out of their way to kill us and
ours just because we are a free people in an
open society.

I mean, what's going on here is the culmination
of 60 years of poisonous foreign policy, not the
retribution for free marketeering and personal
liberties.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: afoaf]
    #2541428 - 04/09/04 12:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think the kind of people that believe in a religion of killing civilians need a rational justification. Guys like al-Qaeda want to institute Islamic law like the Taliban. That IS a big difference from pluralistic liberal democracies like the US. Womens rights, gay rights, democracy, and pretty much any liberty not allowed by a conservative reading of the Koran are threateningto them. Theae are freedoms the fundamentalists don't want people to have, and they hate any society that exports them.
It's like if Pat Robertson started a terrorist group to attack countries that have liberal abortion policies.

You can go on and on about foreign policy, but other countries have had far worse imperialist policies (France, Russia, China) but they are not as visible a target for terrorists. Terrorist hate America because we export a liberal culture that threatens theirs. We are a symbol of infidels, sinners and unbelievers, of culture that dominates radio, tv, film and the internet. Afoaf's explanation may explain why alot the world dislikes America, but terrorists are in a category of their own.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2541535 - 04/09/04 12:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You can go on and on about foreign policy, but other countries have had far worse imperialist policies (France, Russia, China) but they are not as visible a target for terrorists.



The French government in Algeria faced several terrorist attacks. As for Russia, have you ever heard of a place called Chechnya? China currently uses the War on Terrorism as an excuse for persecuting Tibet.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2541695 - 04/09/04 01:12 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

You can go on and on about foreign policy, but other countries have had far worse imperialist policies (France, Russia, China) but they are not as visible a target for terrorists.



The French government in Algeria faced several terrorist attacks. As for Russia, have you ever heard of a place called Chechnya? China currently uses the War on Terrorism as an excuse for persecuting Tibet.




Quite correct, but none of these countries is as reviled as America, the Great Satan. Also, none of them stand for the things America does. France, though a liberal democracy, favors supporting despotism in the name of global stability, while China and Russia...definately not symbols freedom or Western modernity.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2541721 - 04/09/04 01:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

China is not as reviled? Maybe not by the same people, but I guarantee you there's plenty of animosity towards them. France is no longer as reviled because their colonial interventionism has more or less stopped. Russia is still hated by the Muslims, as seen in Chechnya.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Evolving]
    #2541873 - 04/09/04 01:59 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shouldn't these countries be more appropriate targets for Muslim terrorists because of jealousy over their greater freedoms and their way of living?




Those countries arguably have more freedoms, but they can't compare to the POWER of the United States. We are a global superpower with the greatest military and number two isn't even close. We control 25% of the global economy. Our culture has permeated every corner of the globe.

I was waiting to see where the U.S. ranks in terms of giving to the rest of the world.
Now that would be a more interesting and relevant statistic to me.

People always claim we are the world's most generous people, but I never see the numbers to support it
If people could see that the U.S. did something to help them instead of using them and pushing them around perhaps we would have less terrorism?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

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Posts: 3,594
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2541989 - 04/09/04 02:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Have any of these taliban or the iraqi people who hate america, said "fuck america! they have all this blah blah blah".

I dont think this is the soul reason they hate america. Pick some specific instances, i would say this is some sort of vengence. They are radicals indeed. But i would be heasant to not look at the other side.

This is what i hate about the media, they pick out these select few stories to run about the war. They get everyone on their discussion, arguing over facts and bullshit. There is a lot of stuff that you dont hear or know about on american television. This could be the same for other non-arabic countries.

I dont think anyone mentioned anything about the fact that the united states has been giving tons of aid and crap to israel.

"they" obviously hate spain too. So i think its a little bit more global than America.


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What?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Jealousy of our freedoms and way of living? [Re: Jellric]
    #2542137 - 04/09/04 03:41 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Jellric writes:

I was waiting to see where the U.S. ranks in terms of giving to the rest of the world.
Now that would be a more interesting and relevant statistic to me.

People always claim we are the world's most generous people, but I never see the numbers to support it
If people could see that the U.S. did something to help them instead of using them and pushing them around perhaps we would have less terrorism?


There is no way to bump archived articles, so I'll cut and paste a post of mine from a similar debate in this forum last September. The linked site might have the 2003 figures out by now, I don't know. Here's the post:

******************************************************************************
Psilocybeingzz writes:

there is NO way that the US gave the most!!!!!

Look, here's how it works. There is such a thing in discussions as "burden of proof". You are the one who made the claim that the US gave the least of all the Western countries, therefore it is your responsibility to support that claim. It is not my responsibility to disprove it.

Let me describe to you how it is done. Go to Google, type in "foreign aid", then hit the "search" button. You will see a list of sites with information on foreign aid. Check a few to find one which contains a list of foreign aid by country. Then provide the link for us, as well as a brief extract of the information supporting your claim.

For example --

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp?so=d2002#oda

The US government alone in 2002 gave 12.9 billion. Japan's government was second at 9.22 billion.

Private contributions from Americans were at least 34 billion. Note that 34 billion is equal to the combined governmental contribution of the next eight countries on the list. Here's the top ten from 2002 --

1) US 12.900
2) Japan 9.220
3) Germany 5.359
4) France 5.182
5) UK 4.749
6) Netherlands 3.377
7) Italy 2.313
8) Canada 2.013
9) Sweden 1.754
10) Norway 1.746

As a side note, I deliberately chose a site which is critical of the "small" amount of American taxpayer money spent on foreign so I would not be accused of "cherry-picking" a Libertarian-biased site to suit my agenda. The authors of that site want the US to give even more than they are already.

Note that this site was last updated before Bush's announcement of the 15 billion African AIDS program (which is in addition to the normal annual aid amount), so perhaps when they next update it they will not be so critical. Somehow I doubt it.

Dude, I helped you out this time -- this is effort you could (and should) have expended yourself. Next time you make a bogus claim, don't ask others to disprove it. Do your homework.

******************************************************************************

Jellric, please note my comments on "doing homework" and "burden of proof" in the above repost are not directed at you, but at Psilocybeingzz. I recognize that you were not making any assertions re US generosity or stinginess one way or the other, but actually requesting information. I hope this helps.

pinky


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