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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: YangSupporter]
    #25987254 -

YangSupporter said:
lowbrow said:
YangSupporter said:
I want money for all struggling Americans. You should to it would destroy poverty in this country.

No it will create poverty.
YangSupporter said:
Also I was just ribbing on Qman I meant nothing by it.


Your so funneee!:facepalm:


Lowbrow we have already gone over this in the politics section putting money into American hands will create jobs and economic growth. When people can pay there bills with no stress mental health improves. When homeless people can get off the street thats good for the country.


Tell me again where you are going to get the free money?


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: openmind]
    #25987455 -

Quote:
The land/nature/wilderness, that's really all that comes to mind.

I like that there's many different landscapes and lots of majestic places that reside within an area called the "USA" .

Same with California specifically...the only thing I like about this "state" is the diverse geography/landscapes and the climate.

I've always felt standing and pledging an allegiance to a flag was the most silly thing ever, the flag has never meant a damn thing to me and from the first day I started school I despised doing it.....Things like the national anthem is pure cringe for me.


Yea I remember pledging allegiance to the flag in school. I just thought it was something we had to do because we lived in the USA. I see it on the morning news, they always showcase an elementary class doing the pledge. I can't help but think how creepy and stupid it is that they make kids recite that every morning before class. Those kids don't even know what the hell they are saying anyway.

I am thankful for the public land that we do have, the National Parks, Hunting, and just freedom to do what I want to do (for the most part). I'm proud of Colorado for having legal marijuana and decriminalizing mushrooms and all the states that are listening to the people about Kratom. I could go on about it, so those are just some of the reasons.


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My Wish & Trade list

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: lowbrow]
    #25987540 -

lowbrow said:
YangSupporter said:
lowbrow said:
YangSupporter said:
I want money for all struggling Americans. You should to it would destroy poverty in this country.

No it will create poverty.
YangSupporter said:
Also I was just ribbing on Qman I meant nothing by it.


Your so funneee!:facepalm:


Lowbrow we have already gone over this in the politics section putting money into American hands will create jobs and economic growth. When people can pay there bills with no stress mental health improves. When homeless people can get off the street thats good for the country.


Tell me again where you are going to get the free money?


It would be easier than you might think. Andrew proposes funding UBI by consolidating some welfare programs and implementing a Value-Added Tax (VAT) of 10%. Current welfare and social program beneficiaries would be given a choice between their current benefits or $1,000 cash unconditionally – most would prefer cash with no restriction.

A Value-Added Tax (VAT) is a tax on the production of goods or services a business produces. It is a fair tax and it makes it much harder for large corporations, who are experts at hiding profits and income, to avoid paying their fair share. A VAT is nothing new. 160 out of 193 countries in the world already have a Value-Added Tax or something similar, including all of Europe which has an average VAT of 20 percent.

The means to pay for a Universal Basic Income will come from 4 sources:

1.  Current spending.  We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like.  This reduces the cost of Universal Basic Income because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits.

2.  A VAT.  Our economy is now incredibly vast at $19 trillion, up $4 trillion in the last 10 years alone.  A VAT at half the European level would generate $800 billion in new revenue.  A VAT will become more and more important as technology improves because you cannot collect income tax from robots or software.

3.  New revenue.  Putting money into the hands of American consumers would grow the economy.  The Roosevelt Institute projected that the economy would grow by approximately $2.5 trillion and create 4.6 million new jobs.  This would generate approximately $500 – 600 billion in new revenue from economic growth and activity.

4.  We currently spend over one trillion dollars on health care, incarceration, homelessness services and the like.  We would save $100 – 200 billion as people would take better care of themselves and avoid the emergency room, jail, and the street and would generally be more functional.  Universal Basic Income would pay for itself by helping people avoid our institutions, which is when our costs shoot up.  Some studies have shown that $1 to a poor parent will result in as much as $7 in cost-savings and economic growth.

https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: qman]
    #25987547 -

qman said:
YangSupporter said:
specialpeopleclub said:
What our priorities are there besides your nation?

Well international relations and trade for one the world is very interconnected. For example Trumps China tariffs are going to raise the price on common products for ordinary Americans all to spite China. We need a leader who has a strong understanding of world affairs and our role in the world.
I'm not saying universal basic income is the worst idea, just that one needs to make some very good economic arguments as to why it's a favorable idea.
I believe with the current economic climate and the fact that American life expectancy has declined for the third year in a row that there are serious problems in American society. Half of Americans can't afford a five hundred dollar emergency thats a problem that UBI fixes.

Considering how pedestrian our debates are, I doubt anything of substance will be said.
You may be right on this point.




If the tariffs were higher, companies would be forced to return production back to the US and hire US workers.  That's the whole point of economic tariffs, to return industry back to the homeland.  It's called economic nationalism.

What's your solution to get solid good paying jobs back into the US?


Actually we just raised Prices the customers have to pay because of tariffs. we don't have jobs outside the US but some of our products come from outside the US. Very few companies are so large they outsource jobs to china, the TV has you believe this is lots of companies.
This is more the reality. Jobs are still cheap over there. For big companies like apple yea they're going to outsource. Tariff wont change that, the jobs still are cheap lol. For the tens of thousands of companies with less than a few thousand employees their work is already 100% US based anyway. Pass the tariffs off to end users who still need those goods.
Realistically it just makes things more expensive for Americans and slows the economy further.


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:whyyy:

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25987607 -

bodhisatta said:
qman said:
YangSupporter said:
specialpeopleclub said:
What our priorities are there besides your nation?

Well international relations and trade for one the world is very interconnected. For example Trumps China tariffs are going to raise the price on common products for ordinary Americans all to spite China. We need a leader who has a strong understanding of world affairs and our role in the world.
I'm not saying universal basic income is the worst idea, just that one needs to make some very good economic arguments as to why it's a favorable idea.
I believe with the current economic climate and the fact that American life expectancy has declined for the third year in a row that there are serious problems in American society. Half of Americans can't afford a five hundred dollar emergency thats a problem that UBI fixes.

Considering how pedestrian our debates are, I doubt anything of substance will be said.
You may be right on this point.




If the tariffs were higher, companies would be forced to return production back to the US and hire US workers.  That's the whole point of economic tariffs, to return industry back to the homeland.  It's called economic nationalism.

What's your solution to get solid good paying jobs back into the US?


Actually we just raised Prices the customers have to pay because of tariffs. we don't have jobs outside the US but some of our products come from outside the US. Very few companies are so large they outsource jobs to china, the TV has you believe this is lots of companies.
This is more the reality. Jobs are still cheap over there. For big companies like apple yea they're going to outsource. Tariff wont change that, the jobs still are cheap lol. For the tens of thousands of companies with less than a few thousand employees their work is already 100% US based anyway. Pass the tariffs off to end users who still need those goods.
Realistically it just makes things more expensive for Americans and slows the economy further.


I understand this counter argument, but you do realize that very high growth countries like China use high tariffs on their imports?  Why do they do it?  Because they want to keep production inside of their nation since they have almost 2 billion citizens.

What do you think happened when 60,000 factories closed and 4 million jobs were lost to outsourcing of US jobs?  Did that slow down the economy?  Did that help destroy the middle class?  Yes it did.

No, Apple isn't going to continue to outsource IF it's cheaper to manufacture the product in the US, that wouldn't make sense. It's just a matter of putting on the appropriate tariff percentage, if it's to low it's not going to work.

US companies are still shipping work out of US for cheaper production, it's not going to stop. That also includes smaller companies, they have this practice down to a science.

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: qman] * 1
    #25987615 -

Tariffs don't change manufacturing costs. they just make foreign products more expensive so domestic ones look more attractive. Our country is way past needing cell phone assembly plants. You want those shit jobs moved back here? Unemployment is at record low but we need more domestic sweatshops?

People are gladly paying those extra costs because they want what they want. Or they need what they need. So our government is just siphoning more money away from Americans. Decreasing economic power.


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:whyyy:

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: YangSupporter]
    #25987677 -

I don't know if I buy that giving a poor person money helps the economy. I also don't subscribe to the idea that corporations don't pay enough.

Making the economic climate worse for cooperations seems like a bad thing.

It seems like a path to being like the Earth on the Expanse, mostly useless people on government assistance


Also, to someone above, if the national anthem and pledge, or what they symbolise means nothing to you, you should go somewhere else. You shouldn't be made to say it, but if you have such ideas about the us as a nation, wedont need people like you. You are an example of house comfort have made us weak.
Poland had to bleed to become a nation again, and their nation means something to them.
The way Americans talk, we don't deserve it


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Edited by specialpeopleclub (05/12/19 11:53 AM)

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: qman]
    #25987708 -

qman said:
SARAtonin said:
The idea we don’t have enough resources to support our current population is one of the biggest fallacies of the modern age.
It’s not a question of how finite our resources are, it’s a question of how they are being allocated, a question that can’t be addressed until the baseless boundaries have been dissolved.


No, it's not a fallacy. The average US citizen uses 15-30 times more energy daily than the average human across the globe. We do NOT have enough of cheap energy for 8 billion people to live like US citizens, it's impossible.

This reality has NOTHING to do with national borders, it's simple supply relative to demand.


If the average US citizen uses 22.5 times more energy than everyone else, the US alone uses enough energy for ~7.4 billion average people.

There's the problem with this planet, we need to live more like the average person and not the greedy cunt from the USA using 30 times more than everyone else

Edited by chipsandwich (05/12/19 12:08 PM)

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: chipsandwich]
    #25987720 -

So you want to bring the US standard of living down to some poor African nation to solve the energy problems?


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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: chipsandwich]
    #25987725 -

chipsandwich said:
qman said:
SARAtonin said:
The idea we don’t have enough resources to support our current population is one of the biggest fallacies of the modern age.
It’s not a question of how finite our resources are, it’s a question of how they are being allocated, a question that can’t be addressed until the baseless boundaries have been dissolved.


No, it's not a fallacy. The average US citizen uses 15-30 times more energy daily than the average human across the globe. We do NOT have enough of cheap energy for 8 billion people to live like US citizens, it's impossible.

This reality has NOTHING to do with national borders, it's simple supply relative to demand.


If the average US citizen uses 22.5 times more energy than everyone else, the US alone uses enough energy for ~7.4 billion average people.

There's the problem with this planet, we need to live more like the average person and not the greedy cunt from the USA using 30 times more than everyone else


You go first. I'm not going to stop consuming the energy I do because I enjoy a first world standard of living and I'm not going to throw it away.

I do hope the rest of the world can catch up with us, but myself and the rest of the US population isn't going to change our standard of livings.

If you want to live in dire poverty to prove a point, nobody is stopping you. Even better, just leave the US and go to a third world nation to consume just basic needs for survival.

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #25987733 -

specialpeopleclub said:
So you want to bring the US standard of living down to some poor African nation to solve the energy problems?


It's all talk for these types of people, they're not going to do a god dam thing to reduce their standards of living.

Again. they want others to sacrifice for others so they can feel better about themselves.

Talk is cheap and that's all this type of 'save the world' rhetoric really is, pure bullshit.

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: qman]
    #25987745 -

qman said:
I'm not going to stop consuming the energy I do because I enjoy a first world standard of living and I'm not going to throw it away.



Thats why you guys got Trump, cause now its either 1) change your ways or 2) be destroyed by your own greed.

Mother Nature is a self regulating system, if you drive something to excess the excess will make further excess impossible once you hit a limit.

That limit is just about hit.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #25987760 -

Asante said:
qman said:
I'm not going to stop consuming the energy I do because I enjoy a first world standard of living and I'm not going to throw it away.



Thats why you guys got Trump, cause now its either 1) change your ways or 2) be destroyed by your own greed.

Mother Nature is a self regulating system, if you drive something to excess the excess will make further excess impossible once you hit a limit.

That limit is just about hit.


I don't see it, people living in the West aren't going to change their consumption of energy. It's not going to happen.

As far as the "limits", I honestly don't see any issue here. Oil is still very affordable at $60 per barrel and gasoline is under $3 in most parts of the US.  Also, natural gas in the US is incredibly cheap and we use more of it everyday.

Also, things wouldn't be any different if Trump wasn't if office, so I don't know why he has anything to do with this discussion.

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: Asante]
    #25987766 -

You live in a first world nation too, and probably ise a comparable amount of resources to an American


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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #25987770 -

I highly doubt some poor African nation represents the global average standard of living.

Imagine if the top consumers in the planet stopped consuming in excess and lived more responsibly. Think of all the benefits those extra resources could have on all those poor African nations.

It's not about dropping your standard of living, it's about learning how live without decimating the planet and shitting on 80% of the population while you hoard resources. There is plenty to go around

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: chipsandwich]
    #25987778 -

We aren't decimating the planet. I don't live particularly luxuriously.
I'm not giving an inch to help these people I don't know because some ignorant person thinks that the world works that way.


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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: chipsandwich]
    #25987809 -

chipsandwich said:
I highly doubt some poor African nation represents the global average standard of living.

Imagine if the top consumers in the planet stopped consuming in excess and lived more responsibly. Think of all the benefits those extra resources could have on all those poor African nations.

It's not about dropping your standard of living, it's about learning how live without decimating the planet and shitting on 80% of the population while you hoard resources. There is plenty to go around


No, if the consumption of energy is reduced, the standard of living will also drop. So there's no free lunch with this reality.

If you want to learn how to consume less, go for it, but don't demand me to do the same to meet your goals of "equality".

"There is plenty of go around"

This is total bullshit, the whole world can't live a first world standard of living. This is basic math, it's impossible.

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: qman]
    #25988037 -

qman said:
Asante said:
qman said:
I'm not going to stop consuming the energy I do because I enjoy a first world standard of living and I'm not going to throw it away.



Thats why you guys got Trump, cause now its either 1) change your ways or 2) be destroyed by your own greed.

Mother Nature is a self regulating system, if you drive something to excess the excess will make further excess impossible once you hit a limit.

That limit is just about hit.


I don't see it, people living in the West aren't going to change their consumption of energy. It's not going to happen.




Point blank: Either Trump or his successor will run America into the ground so that it will not be possible to maintain or expand on previous energy consumption levels -- unless humanity wises up and starts doing the right thing. Not because they are sadistic fucks but because crashes are a necessary consequence of our current system and its crash is way way overdue, like a forest with 20ft of dead wood waiting for a forest fire.

Quote:
As far as the "limits", I honestly don't see any issue here. Oil is still very affordable at $60 per barrel and gasoline is under $3 in most parts of the US.  Also, natural gas in the US is incredibly cheap and we use more of it everyday.


You fight wars to maintain this. Soon there won't be any country you can bomb to "make it stop" because you hit the NATURAL LIMIT. And that isn't a bronze age nation of brown people you can conveniently bomb into the stone age with your militasry industrial complex that chows down on over half of the US gov't's budget as it is.

Know how Silver is ridiculously underpriced? Same with fossil fuels in the US.


Quote:
This is total bullshit, the whole world can't live a first world standard of living. This is basic math, it's impossible.



Imagine the whole world deciding it can no longer afford having the 5% of the world population THAT IS YOU use up 25% of the world's resources?

Trump KNOWS the system is going to collapse so he throws away all common sense and changes laws such that the elites can stuff themselves to the maximum extent with wealth and power for when the great famine comes.

Those "shit creek/SHTF" stories surrounding precious metals.. there's a level of truth to that. Not space aliens or illuminati conspiracies with human secrifice but simple capitalist opportunism, working independently by unwritten rules that follow from the capitalist paradigm.

Fascism failed.
Socialism failed.
We are seeing capitalism fail now.

WE NEED A NEW PARADIGM AND THAT MEANS THAT WE ALL MUST WORK *WITH* EACHOTHER AND NOT *AGAINST* EACH OTHER

And this time not some of us at the expense of the rest of the world  :hitler:  but with the best interest of the whole world in mind :rainbowcloud:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

Onehomemission.org
truly make a difference

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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: Asante] * 5
    #25988083 -

There is just too much ignorance to parse in what you say Asante. It's fucking drivel. Must be some of the least psychedelic stuff I've ever read. Things like that make me nervous to take the psyches I have.

We aren't just attacking g random nation's to somehow keep our standard of living, the president doesn't control the economy, and capitalism isn't failing. Capitalism, well not always fair, is the sum of negotiations over resources and labor to determine prices.
Well it doesn't account for every factor, it can't just 'fail'. The way you see the world is sad,like, wow.
I'm depressed,and when I hear average, 'happy', and 'enlightened' people talk like this, it makes me want to blow my brains out. People crave the end of the world, and you make it apparent.

You think you do good with your end of the world talk? You think throwing a 'work together' message at the end makes what you say sensible?

People don't want to work together. We want our own places with people like us that make us feel secure to be around. The 'one world's idea isn't just against human nature, it's a recipe for war,because geography is what's important.
The rights of someone across the world to the land and resources of where I live shouldn't be the same as the people that live here.


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Re: What do you think of nationalism? [Re: Asante]
    #25988094 -

they're talking about lowering interest rates to15%
can you imagine
lowering to 15%?
it shouldn't have been that high to begin with
some people think there shouldn't be any
all they're doing is spending fake money and using your labour


--------------------
http://bunkpolice.com/basic-test-kit/
Vienna Declaration
Salvia Divinorum The Docudrahma

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