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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #25914497 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I don't think Ice wanted any intervention. He explained to me that in the light of his aging he was bored...he wasn't in despair, though he had a serious dark streak. I suspect his mental state had more to do with it than his neuropathy.... He was scared shitless of death as I told him we should be. He didn't like being scared...


This is it in a nutshell. As I suggested, a pathological degree of boredom and ennui often accompany Borderline dynamics. Borderlines are 'black holes' and can never be filled or fulfilled. They're kind of like the mythic Hungry Ghosts in Tibetan Buddhism in this regard. But unlike every BPD person I've ever gotten to know, Ice was not a 'psychic vampire' in real life. He isolated himself instead of parasitizing others for their attention or finances or virtually anything deemed capable of feeding on for some sort of fulfillment. He did characteristically threaten, or promise suicide at some point. It is debatable whether his obsession with suicide, even before neuropathy took hold, was just that unique BPD criteria used to manipulate people. Perhaps I was wrong in denying any vampirizing if he was asked, beseeched or pleaded with NOT to do the deed. Perhaps he did in fact feed off of this in order to create a temporary sense of selfhood as a being whom others did not want to be abandoned by.

Ice aspired to Stoicism but fell short of that ideal. Boasting of being addicted, dependent on opioids and kratom for his neuropathy is clearly not stoical. So perhaps he simply defaulted to Cynicism, not far from Nihilism, but as I posted earlier, he did claim to have some kind of faith near the end of his days. You may be spot-on about his neuropathy not really being as life-defeating as he contended. Like a lot of people, it is easier to accede to a physical malady than a psychological one. It is a covert identification with one's mind over the identification with one's body even though both change, age, and diminish over time. This covert identification of mind over body is a kind of unconscious spirituality in that it gives precedence to the non-material over the material in terms of one's identity. Just sayin'.

Like most other people, I am trying to understand, comprehend all that has preceded a suicide in someone I have known in some capacity. Unlike you, he and I were not friends, but we were connected in some way. Perhaps it was by long association on these forums wherein many of us have explored, experimented and struggled in earnest with personal philosophies. This kind of outcome in life shows that philosophy is not merely some frivolous past-time or mere mental masturbation but a matter of life or death. I don't know if I agree with Socrates' decision to drink the hemlock when he was offered safe passage out of Athens. Perhaps all of his wisdom would have been tainted by perceived cowardice if he had saved himself. I strenuously object to the Christian martyrs who walked with their children into the Coliseum to be tortured to death for their mythic 'beliefs.' I rather appreciated the Gnostics who kept their secrets to themselves and who felt no misguided need to thumb their noses at the Roman authorities. I never considered them to be cowards, but rather wise. But I am not equating Ice's life-death decision with Socrates who decided not to be remembered as being inconsistent with his values or cowardly for not living and dying on the basis of his conviction. Neither am I comparing Ice to a martyr nor am I condemning Ice for voluntarily bringing death on himself. I am not thinking anything. I'm just feeling sad. And I am reminded of John Donne's poem:


For Whom the Bell Tolls

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #25914588 -

I do not think Ice was a psychic vampire...I have known a couple. One actually feigned having stage 4 lymphoma which you rarely come back from...for over a year before she decided to be miraculously "cured". She had an "autistic" daughter who seemed to me to be merely encouraged and rewarded (with ice cream of her choice for doing this) for trashing people's homes that she entered as proof of her autism. She tried to trash mine and I put her and her mother out the door. I am autistic and my grandson is also. My daughter has serious tendencies. I know what it is like. This person thrived off of pity. I gave her nothing but encouraging words and she eventually left me and my wife alone. Now Ice would talk about suicide, but wanted agreement and justification. He would get bent when I would not support this. He said why can't you just agree that it is my life to do as I want. I said that some decisions you should not ask your friends to support.

He was hiking well over 5 miles a day every day...serious physical disability would not allow that. I also know that he hadn't taken opiates for quite some time. This was verified by him and his family. As far as kratom addiction goes...Ice averaged 3 to 7 grams daily. I did this myself for over a year and the withdrawal when I quit was similar to caffeine. I still use it sometimes and find it a helpful plant...but not addictive in normal amounts. Once again I saw early onset of Alzheimer's...I know the illness as I watched my mother die from it. It is likely all his suicide talk from the start was because of this even if he was unaware. He wasn't lonely. He had a girlfriend, a sister that adored him, and an adoptive daughter of sorts (whose parents had been nonfunctional) who came to visit regularly. I am pretty sure she got his house and car because he had discussed this with me. All of my children knew him and liked him. The positive effect he had on me was noted by them. My wife had the nerve to compare me unfavorably to him (and OC too damn it). They apparently were gentlemen while I was not...lol. If he would have moved his sister and girlfriend I take it would have followed. In my family he would have been welcome and he knew all of this. If he claimed loneliness it was self imposed.

I know some of you guys that viewed Icelander unfavorably (and some favorably) would be surprised to know this. Anyway he never milked me or my wife for pity. If I had asked he would have given me most anything that he possessed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25914683 -

I think your statement is spot-on: "...some decisions you should not ask your friends to support," and I appreciate your clarification on the points that were merely speculative on my part. I hope that you were not offended by anything I wrote. That was certainly not my intention if I did so I'll apologize in case I have.

What predominates in my mind is that from the beginning of communication he was on this obsessive trip about suicide. I knew it was only a matter of when, as would anyone with a reasonable mind who engaged Ice on the subject. People who talk incessantly about suicide actually do tend to commit suicide. Personally, I do not think he should've abandoned his dogs, but everyone who opts for suicide abandons someone since no one is an island unto him/herself.

Taking responsibility for dispersing his ashen remains is honorable of you. You're a mensch and it is a mitzva to do this with respect if not reverence. I for one will beg out of this discussion. I will not miss the irascibility of the man, but I regret that whatever he may have discovered vis-à-vis the Gnostic sources I shared at his request were insufficient to kindle a desire to live longer. I remain open to communication with you, just so you know, and not just because Ice thought we might benefit from a mutual exchange. :hug:

:peace:
MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rose]
    #25917096 -

Rose said:
I take it to mean suicide is a final act of defiant self-control.


That we'd view suicide as an act of defiance really reveals a deep seeded perspective that death is an adversary that we fight. Notice how we talk about "battling" cancer - as if death is something that is trying to take us down. I don't think decisions surrounding death are equivalent to choices about what food to eat or what clothes to wear, because, without suicide, the moment of our death is not something we control. Someone once said ego is the only thing that would ever desire to annihilate itself. Self-loathing can also support suicide.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #25917125 -

IMO we make decisions every day that are designed to exert control over the moment of death. And while all of us ultimately will fail, that doesn't mean we aren't trying every day to control the timeline.

And how many people have you seen pass? I've seen quite a few who seemingly control elements of their passing. I watched my grandmother stave off death until she had everyone's consent to go. And then it was almost immediately after that she passed. There are differing levels of fight at the end and even "natural" causes can have individual influences IME.

Even in the less esoteric ways, like choosing how long to continue treatment when faced with a terminal illness. Deciding how much time is worth against comfort or quality of life. Or signing a do not resuscitate order. Etc. It's turtles all the way down to today.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #25917162 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
That we'd view suicide as an act of defiance really reveals a deep seeded perspective that death is an adversary that we fight.


I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm defiant by nature to a T, and I don't see death as something to fight - rather - something to embrace when the time comes. Yet taking it into my own hands feels like it would be a defiance nontheless. I would derive very much satisfaction from taking a choice to leave of my own accord, defiant to what nature and/or life intends for me.

I do agree that death, in our culture at large, is absolutely an adversary. But for men like myself, possibly Icelander and many warriors willing to go to it willingly, I'm don't think it is.

History abounds with stories of men who have gone to it willingly, by their own hands or those of others.

I often find these stories heartwarming and inspiring.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25917670 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Rose said:
I take it to mean suicide is a final act of defiant self-control.


That we'd view suicide as an act of defiance really reveals a deep seeded perspective that death is an adversary that we fight. Notice how we talk about "battling" cancer - as if death is something that is trying to take us down. I don't think decisions surrounding death are equivalent to choices about what food to eat or what clothes to wear, because, without suicide, the moment of our death is not something we control. Someone once said ego is the only thing that would ever desire to annihilate itself. Self-loathing can also support suicide.


I was speaking from my own personal experience with suicidal depression, and the vast number of people I have known and then lost to suicide. Some were quite creative, like jumping out of a WTC tower while it burned because a plane had hit it.

You may wish to consult someone with more experience on the matter.

I’ve seen a lot of, for lack of a better term, defiance. It may not be universal.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 4
    #25918196 -

I got John's ashes today. I ain't going to say Icelander because that was an online persona. We all lack true identity...only what we assign ourselves, but Merrill John Miller was the name on his birth certificate, and he had me call him John. Besides I don't have his online persona...I guess I got him unless this is an elaborate and not completely funny joke (it would be funny objectively though...just not to me). I was expecting a smaller package but there is pounds of this stuff...really...it is quite odd to me... Tomorrow I am out to have his release over the desert...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25918355 -

This chapter certainly feels Castanedaesque.

I wish you strength and peace during this final sendoff.


--------------------

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25918404 -

No in a Castaneda book he would have burned cleanly from The Fire From Within...it wouldn't have been near so messy...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25918618 -

I'll be with you from here in spirit Hue. Mail me a pinch and I'll make it a keepsake. Or not.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #25918636 -

Quote:
I'll make it a keepsake. Or not.


You channeled Icelander perfectly. :lol:


--------------------

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25918682 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I'll make it a keepsake. Or not.


You channeled Icelander perfectly. :lol:


:hug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25918714 -

I'd happily keep a piece of John on my altar too. He was a special man.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #25918874 -

thus far we have deduced he did not die by fire

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #25918917 -

:crymeariver:

(playing sad violin sincerely, not trolling)


--------------------

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25919544 -

redgreenvines said:
thus far we have deduced he did not die by fire


I am sharing these two excerpts from a couple of PMs made on the same day a little of a year ago. I realize it is a matter of morbid curiosity, but If anyone here actually cares to speculate about Ice's cause of death, these writings seem pretty telling. One not so morbid a motive for wanting to know is that one may hope that his passing was painless.



Received: 01/19/18 11:02 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

"Markos I've done massive research on suicide and it's methods. The best book is by Geo Stone called Suicide. He is a brilliant physician who is compassionate about civil rights.  He doesn't ever recommend anything but gives you the information about most of the commonly chosen methods, why they sometimes or often fail and how to do it right so you won't fail. It's a big book and costs over $100 last time I looked.

Anyway hanging is a good method. Most doctors and others believe strangulation almost or never happens in a suspension hanging. A suspension hanging is when you just use the weight of your body to cut off the blood supply to the carotid artery and the the one that let's the blood flow back out of  your brain. (can't remember it's name at the moment)  When constricted by a rope or an arm(choke hold used by police and martial artists) blood supply to the brain is shut off and you lose consciousness within 15 seconds. Minimal pain if any. So all you have to do is to do it right and you're home free. If someone had anxiety they could take opiates or a benzo to calm them. You don't even have to fully suspend yourself off the floor unless  you are very light in weight."



Received: 01/19/18 09:37 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

"What seems best to me is a drug/rope combo. You pass out and fall slack and cut off the blood supply to the brain. If don't right it would be painless and easy. Then you make sure it's the medics who find you first and not friends etc. That's all easily done if you plan ahead.

We'll see if I make  use of it someday.  Right now I'm still kicking but I can see the time coming when it's all going to be no fun at all.

The drug od seems like the most pleasant but only 1 in 25 attempts are successful if I remember correctly. If you live brain damage and liver damage is often the result.

I'm amazed at how fearful humanity is of suicide and death.  People go nuts about the subject and all rational thought goes out the window. Some of the Stoics didn't seem to fear it and thought it a good thing at times."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25919583 -

ok thanks, now we sort of know.
still sounds messy and smelly, for the person that comes to find the body.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25920046 -

redgreenvines said:
ok thanks, now we sort of know.
still sounds messy and smelly, for the person that comes to find the body.


I suppose that is why he mentioned having paramedics make the discovery. My cousin found his father hanging on a door in his bedroom after my uncle said to him "You're all I have left." I surmise my nasty, unfaithful Borderline aunt had asked him for a divorce. Anyway, my cousin never received counseling and he went on to become a barbiturate user, later a heroin user and a prescription opioid addict. He struggles with addiction daily, but he has probably been living with the trauma he experienced at age 13 in 1969, and he unwittingly has been self-medicating his trauma-based pain ever since. When we connected recently and I tried to go there, he shut me down and unfriended me.

So yeah, the aftermath is not pretty. But if anyone gave ample warning to those around him, Icelander did. We all heard it here for the better part of two decades so I'm sure others learned to expect it.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 4
    #25920346 -

John over dosed himself on opiates prescribed for his neuropathy. He hadn't actually taken them for several weeks so he had no tolerance. I just now logged in and checked the posts. I think mailing John all over the country to his fans and enemies would have been cool, but I was subject to strict conditions that I had agreed to. The instructions were explicit. I carries them out  as stated. I walked to a high point about 1500 ft over Bisbee Arizona and let his ashes free. I first threw a bunch into the air out of my hand. It blew back in my face and I got it in my mouth. It left a sandy grit in my mouth until now. There were bits as large as a an inch diameter. At that point I let it all go in case I saw teeth. The pic I attached is John's ashes in my hand. I never thought I would be the last chapter in someone's story. It is sobering and strange at once. My clothes still have a chalk of bone clinging to them. Ice was a strange bird and the bastard led me into strange territory, but I am not bitter...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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