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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25853894 -

The Ecstatic said:
It’s only natural! That’s why racism against Irish and Italians and Slavs still exist in America.

Oh wait.

It’s not “natural.” It’s cultural.


Yes, there's racial, ethnic and many different forms of tribalism.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25853902 -

Pinkerton said:
qman said:
Yes, it's racial tribalism, but guess what?  Once you have even a 2 minute conversation with that black stranger that feeling goes away in very short order. :shrug:


Well to be honest, it doesn't always go away. It can pop up from time to time. It's disgusting.


Most human survival mechanisms could be considered "disgusting", but it serves no purpose to beat yourself over it.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25853956 -

ballsalsa said:
I don't feel guilt for slavery, as an example, because I didn't participate in the institution.


But you reap the benefits of it. :wink:

This is what deniers of white guilt always forget.

Edited by Pinkerton (03/05/19 10:12 AM)

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: qman]
    #25853959 -

qman said:
Pinkerton said:
qman said:
Yes, it's racial tribalism, but guess what?  Once you have even a 2 minute conversation with that black stranger that feeling goes away in very short order. :shrug:


Well to be honest, it doesn't always go away. It can pop up from time to time. It's disgusting.


Most human survival mechanisms could be considered "disgusting", but it serves no purpose to beat yourself over it.


Oh I agree.

I'm disgusted by myself when I don't help the needy. The weakest link must always become the strongest continually in a healthy society.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #25853964 -

everyone in america reaps the benefits, including the descendants of the enslaved, a politically incorrect fact, I know.
still, i don't hear anyone clamoring to get on boats to liberia.  I certainly don't deny the existence of white privilege, if that is what you're trying to imply.  I just prefer to take the reasoned position that in civilized society we don't confer guilt upon people for the crimes of their ancestors, especially if their ancestors were poor, never owned a slave, and never even lived in this country during the institution of slavery.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25853979 -

ballsalsa said:
everyone in america reaps the benefits, including the descendants of the enslaved, a politically incorrect fact, I know.
still, i don't hear anyone clamoring to get on boats to liberia.  I certainly don't deny the existence of white privilege, if that is what you're trying to imply.  I just prefer to take the reasoned position that in civilized society we don't confer guilt upon people for the crimes of their ancestors, especially if their ancestors were poor, never owned a slave, and never even lived in this country during the institution of slavery.


Most of these descendants of the enslaved are victims of everyday racism and stigma because of slavery. As you know.

They don't go to Liberia because of colonialism. It's McDonalds or mud.

If their ancestors took part in the slavery, they're basically born partly as results of slavery and the luxury of having slave(s). It's very filthy. And they take no responsibility to pay any reparations what so ever. They should definitely feel white guilt IMO.

If their ancestors actively fought against it I agree. :thumbup:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: qman] * 1
    #25853996 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
It’s only natural! That’s why racism against Irish and Italians and Slavs still exist in America.

Oh wait.

It’s not “natural.” It’s cultural.


Yes, there's racial, ethnic and many different forms of tribalism.


Sidestepping the point tho, innit?

Tribalism used to mean bias toward your tribe. Then your region. And on and on it grows to the point where it now applies to simply skin color (at least for the purposes of our conversation).

Seems to me tribalism is an ever reducing defense mechanism. Who says it won’t soon be widely accepted that our only tribalism is the human tribe? Or life in general?


--------------------

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25854002 -

We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854011 -

ballsalsa said:
We'll have to agree to disagree.


Before we agree to disagree we must agree about what we disagree on. :wink:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #25854022 -

I don't believe in the idea of "the sins of the father".
If your direct ancestor was jack the ripper or adolf hitler himself, it wouldn't make you guilty of one single thing, as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854057 -

You're a product of their evil success. :shrug:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25854059 -

you too, sweetie. :heytherebadboy:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854068 -

And that my friend is why I struggle with white guilt. But as long as I seriously help the needy, in particular starving African children, I don't feel much of it.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854077 -

Obviously people are closer related to their evil success, such as white people. And on top of that reap the benefits of it. :wink:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #25854085 -

helping the needy is a worthwhile endeavor, but do it because it's the right thing to do, not to assuage some guilt over the transgressions of the past that you had no hand in.  That's no better than folks who pat themselves on the back for being born into immense wealth and privilege, another thing that they have no control over or hand in bringing about.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854094 -

helping the needy is a worthwhile endeavor, but do it because it's the right thing to do  not to assuage some guilt over the transgressions of the past that you had no hand in.

If my genes partook in it, I will pay up for it.

That's no better than folks who pat themselves on the back for being born into immense wealth and privilege, another thing that they have no control over or hand in bringing about.

You know what they should do though? Give it all to needy people. :wink:

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25854100 -

whatever floats your boat, my dude.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25854105 -

It's called taking moral responsibility.

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25854125 -

no, it's called living in a deluded fantasy world, but that's none of my business.
In a very literal sense, your genes didn't take part in shit, my man.  They didn't exist until they were created within your parent's gametes that subsequently combined to form the you.  Prior to that, they were just a bunch of molecules.  Germ cells don't even have a full set, and don't seemingly have will, so even if your daddy shot a man right before he impregnated your mom, your genes still didn't literally partake in said act.
If you're speaking figuratively, then it's just nonsense on it's face.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your arguments make you sound foolish, even if your heart is in the right place.  Even were you right, what is the moral thing to do?  Galvanize racists and their institutions with nonsense arguments that force them to become even more entrenched(vinegar), or just set an example of what is right by simply doing it without using it as an opportunity to chastise someone for something they didn't even do(honey)?

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Re: Shapiro 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25854133 -

The Ecstatic said:
qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
It’s only natural! That’s why racism against Irish and Italians and Slavs still exist in America.

Oh wait.

It’s not “natural.” It’s cultural.


Yes, there's racial, ethnic and many different forms of tribalism.


Sidestepping the point tho, innit?

Tribalism used to mean bias toward your tribe. Then your region. And on and on it grows to the point where it now applies to simply skin color (at least for the purposes of our conversation).

Seems to me tribalism is an ever reducing defense mechanism. Who says it won’t soon be widely accepted that our only tribalism is the human tribe? Or life in general?


I agree, our tribalism usually starts at home and then extends to friends/family, and continues to move outward. It's all contingent on the environment, if it changes we do as well.

With that being said, with 8 billion people and limited resources, tribalism is going to remain alive and well.

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