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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: Enlil]
    #25090700 -

I'm saying that the large number of guns in the country is primarily due to hoarders.

Actually half the guns are owned by just 3% of the population

Quote:
But America’s gun super-owners, have amassed huge collections. Just 3% of American adults own a collective 133m firearms – half of America’s total gun stock. These owners have collections that range from eight to 140 guns, the 2015 study found. Their average collection: 17 guns each.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/the-gun-numbers-just-3-of-american-adults-own-a-collective-133m-firearms


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25090874 -

koods said:
Gun violence has decreased because fewer people have guns :cookiemonster:


:rolleyes:

Koods, are you familiar with one of Obama's 29 Executive Orders on Gun control that gave 10 million dollars to the CDC to study firearm violence in depth?

Well no one ever brought up the results of THIS STUDY because it didn't fit the Narrative Obama was hoping it would.

Not only did they find no evidence that Gun control, and several popular measures in particular have ever had any effect on Violent crime or Firearm violence in the US

but they also found that defensive uses of firearms in the US Range from 500,000 low end to 2,500,000 Every YEAR which totally blows the measly 12 - 13k firearm homicides, 20k Firearm suicides, even all firearm related violent crime completely out of the water.

Not to mention the FBI homicide Data tables that show that your fictional "assault weapons" Combined with all other rifles and shotguns account for less than 2% of firearm homicide.

Or the FBI Data Tables that show that armed civilians lawfully kill over %50 as many Lethal criminals as police each year.

Is it safe to say that taking our guns away would leave %50 more Dangerous criminals in our country each year? Not to mention their victims that instead of having an opportunity to protect themselves and their children would be forced to be vulnerable.


I live in California where we have no right to bear arms.. And according to the FBI, California has the 13th Highest rates of violent crime per 100,000
Californians are more likely to be victims of violent crime than people in Texas, Arizona, or 37 other states. Texas, and Arizona Rank 16th and 17th


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 12:52 AM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: bio_alchemist] * 1
    #25090920 -

Did you even look at the link you said was a study? That was an analysis of the current state of reasrch on guns and how to improve and prioritize the data available to researchers. It essentially says we don't know shit about the effect guns have on society because we aren't collecting the data necessary to conduct any reliable research.

I guess you are correct they found no evidence gun control works because we don't study the question due to a lack of data.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25090946 -

The FBI has terrible data on law enforcement involved homicide. The FBI says cops killed 442 citizens, when the real number is 1134.

Just look at the supplemental data information you linked for all types of crimes. There are massive holes in data collection, because a lot of reporting is voluntary.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25090947 -

koods said:
Did you even look at the link you said was a study?

we aren't collecting the data necessary to conduct any reliable research.

I guess you are correct they found no evidence gun control works because we don't study the question due to a lack of data.


Yes I have read it cover to cover, because unlike most anti gun peeps this is something that ACTUALLY EFFECTS MY LIFE. Something that has already turned thousands of innocent people in my state into Felons. It is the Study Obama spent 10 million dollars on...

What more data should we be collecting?? We Have overwhelming amounts of Data From the FBI's Annual reports, The CDC's Research on gun violence and countless private studies...  Im providing it to you but you keep Disregarding the facts.... Look at every state that is known for tough gun laws, and they have the highest rates of Violent Crime. In a country where violent Crime has been steadily going down, my state, and others that force citizens to be vulnerable are seeing an UPWARD trend in violent crime that was not always there...

* All rifles and shotguns represent %2 of firearm homicide FACT

* Firearm Violence is WAAAYYY down in the US FACT

* You are twice as likely to intentionally shoot yourself in the face than be a victim of gun violence FACT

* The 3rd President of our country Thomas Jefferson said "I prefer Dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" FACT

*You are 6 times more likely to be beaten to death with bare fists than killed by a semi auto rifle "fictional assault weapon" FACT

* Handguns are used in more Mass killings than Rifles FACT

* Our Current gun control laws are INCREDIBLY EXTENSIVE at least much more than %90 of anti gun people I speak with realize.

* People who defend their lives with a firearm have less injuries and a higher survival rating than those who don't FACT

*When Seconds Count, police are usually minutes away and each and every one of us will always be the first line of defense when our loved ones or ourselves are the target of a violent crime.  FACT


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"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25090956 -

koods said:
The FBI has terrible data on law enforcement involved homicide. The FBI says cops killed 442 citizens, when the real number is 1134.



***JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDES Not murders, or accidents. (I think we can both agree that not all of them were likely Reeaallyy justifiable)

Citizens are held under much tighter scrutiny than police when it comes to justifiable homicide. This still disregards the 500,000 - 2,500,000 times Firearms are used defensively to protect lives each year that dont result in Death. Many times simply the moment criminals realize their victim is armed the threat is stopped.

(This happened to me personally only 2 moths ago^^)

Please point out to me a stat from the FBI that conflicts with itself. I think its more likely a case of you misinterpereting what the numbers represent.

Are you suggesting we should disregard all data from the FBI and CDC as innacurate and move forward based off of emotion and a disregard for the values that define our country? :willynilly:


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 01:35 AM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: bio_alchemist] * 1
    #25090961 -

Legally they are almost all justifiable, even when they aren't.

Quote:
You are twice as likely to intentionally shoot yourself in the face than be a victim of gun violence FACT


That's not an argument against gun control. People don't accidentally shoot tjemsekves if they don't have a gun. THATS A FACT.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25090994 -

I said INTENTIONALLY Thats a pretty significant argument IMO :rofl: :suicide:
There is no such thing as a firearm accident, Only Negligence. Japan has no guns and many multiples our suicide rate, so do many other countries.

Koods please for the love of god, instead of looking for one thing to discredit me why don't you address any of the points I made that you know are valid. Why they should be overlooked. Please help convince me

koods said:
Legally they are almost all justifiable, even when they aren't.



Please, give me a source because as someone who actually has to study self defense laws they are HEAVILY weighed against the defender.

If I fear for my life and im getting violently beaten and robbed on a sidewalk late at night and I use a knife to stab my attacker I will go to jail and if I Mortally wound my attacker I will be charged with Murder. (Because I used lethal force, in response to a non lethal force)

Total BS, Anyone convicted of a violent crime should be gassed IMO  :cheer:


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 02:29 AM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: koods]
    #25091246 -

koods said:
The FBI has terrible data on law enforcement involved homicide. The FBI says cops killed 442 citizens, when the real number is 1134.



Well, I agree that cops shouldn't be allowed to carry guns on duty.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: Kryptos]
    #25091345 -

Kryptos said:
Then, what is the time for laws?

Seems like taking guns away as a result of mass shootings has worked in every other country. UK, Australia...


When is the time for laws? During the General political process.

there is a time for making laws, and it's a long and difficult process, and it's long and difficult for a good reason.

There are political parties with set agendas that will exploit these tragedies and the populations emotions after these tragedies to alter laws that otherwise would not have been changed. That's exploitation and manipulation of tragedies and the democratic system. Laws should not be made as knee-jerk reactions to emotional fits brought on by tragedy.

If this is how politics are conducted those who want to change laws, specially when it comes to changing constitutionally protected rights, will begin to encourage and perpetrate these massacres to get what they want. Its dangerous.

Remember when Maureen Baginski, the NSA’s third highest-ranking official at that timebdeclared "9/11 was a gift for the NSA? And Thomas Drake, also quoting Baginski as saying, in response to 911: “Now, we will get all the money we need and even more”

I see gun laws after shootings as being the same type of political manipulation.

Do you think these laws will make you safer? Do you think they will change a single thing?

...well, laws will change the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens, while a psychopath will find new ways to hurt people.

Its not like you make a law and the problem disappears, quite the opposite.

This isn't an issue about guns. Why should the specific weapon matter? If they didn't have guns they would make bombs or do some other horrible thing to take large numbers of lives.

I think we need to look at what drives people to do these things, rather than focusing on how they do these things.

What we need is love and compassion. If you see a person that is having a hard time, or who seems angry or like they are about to "blow", be a friend, try to make them feel better. Or in general just be mindful of how you treat people. Seriously, if you treated a person with kindness and respect everyday, and that person did somehow snap and start mass killing, that person might think twice about shooting me. What if everybody could swallow their pride and ego and treat every human with kindness and respect? I bet these things wouldn't happen, at least not near as often.

Love is the answer, and love is all you need.


--------------------
I've noticed that when people are joking they're usually dead serious, and when they're serious, they're usually pretty funny.-Jim Morrison

'Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.-Confucius —

When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you – pull your beard, flick your face – to make you fight. Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor.”― John Lennon

This account as been hacked! It is still being messed with by an intruder.

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: bio_alchemist]
    #25091407 -

Quote:
bio_alchemist said:

Please, give me a source because as someone who actually has to study self defense laws they are HEAVILY weighed against the defender.

If I fear for my life and im getting violently beaten and robbed on a sidewalk late at night and I use a knife to stab my attacker I will go to jail and if I Mortally wound my attacker I will be charged with Murder. (Because I used lethal force, in response to a non lethal force)

Total BS, Anyone convicted of a violent crime should be gassed IMO  :cheer:


Gassing criminals isn't a violent crime?

That self-defense thing differs by the state you are in.

Quote:
When the use of deadly force is involved in a self-defense claim, the person must also reasonably believe that their use of deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's infliction of great bodily harm or death. Most states no longer require a person to retreat before using deadly force.-Wikipedia


Quote:
Four elements are required for self-defense: (1) an unprovoked attack, (2) which threatens imminent injury or death, and (3) an objectively reasonable degree of force, used in response to (4) an objectively reasonable fear of injury or death.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/5-2-self-defense/&ved=0ahUKEwib4IedlIraAhVG-GMKHe4-ANYQFghAMAU&usg=AOvVaw2sjA7r3nm3aK5NiV7btJ7d


If you are attacked, and stab someone in legitimate self-defense and they die, you will likely be charged, but if the defense was legitimate you won't get convicted. If you kill someone in defense you might have to plea to manslaughter or justifiable homicide or something like that, but you won't do any real prison time. Worst case you get fined and probation or do some time in county. If it doesn't stand as legal defense, but it is clear that you were defending yourself, even if they die your not doing more than 10 years. The exact situation determines a good deal.

I am fully willing to accept charges and time for defeating a threat with violence. If I perceive that i am being threatened, regardless of the law, that threat is getting neutralized or eliminated.

Personally, if I get into a defense situation, I won't hesitate to use a knife, even if I have to do a little jail time. Its worth the peace of mind. You can't be worried about the law when someone attacks you, I'll stab first and do the time latter if i have to, I would rather do time then get got.


--------------------
I've noticed that when people are joking they're usually dead serious, and when they're serious, they're usually pretty funny.-Jim Morrison

'Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.-Confucius —

When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you – pull your beard, flick your face – to make you fight. Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor.”― John Lennon

This account as been hacked! It is still being messed with by an intruder.

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: Ibex-Trismegistus]
    #25091999 -

Kryptos said:
Then, what is the time for laws?

Seems like taking guns away as a result of mass shootings has worked in every other country. UK, Australia...


@ kryptos none of those countries had a 2nd amendment. or a first amendment for that matter. You can be jailed for "hate speech"

Our first presidents also picked up guns, fought off their own government, then went on to create the greatest country that has ever existed (IMO:)
One based on Liberty and self responsibility where rules were set in place to make sure tyranny never happened again. and if it did, we would have the tools to stop it

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, - Declaration of Independence

Ibex-Trismegistus said:
What we need is love and compassion.

Love is the answer, and love is all you need.


:hug: :awecluster: :whathesaid:

(I agree! and Ill have guns to cover you in case it doesn't work out)

Enlil said:
koods said:
The FBI has terrible data on law enforcement involved homicide. The FBI says cops killed 442 citizens, when the real number is 1134.



Well, I agree that cops shouldn't be allowed to carry guns on duty.


Hey now I think cops deserve at least the same natural rights as any US civilian :shrug: Gun free zones clearly were a bad idea for schools. Forcing gun free cops would be even worse because they are actually forced to seek out and confront violent criminals.

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 01:35 PM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: Ibex-Trismegistus]
    #25092007 -

Ibex-Trismegistus said:
Gassing criminals isn't a violent crime?

That self-defense thing differs by the state you are in.

Personally, if I get into a defense situation, I won't hesitate to use a knife, even if I have to do a little jail time. Its worth the peace of mind. t.


HAh,
Gassing criminals is justice :wink: We live in a society not only incredibly lenient on violence and theft. but society encourages it for many young people. I see no reason to tolerate someone who thinks its ok to hurt an innocent person. To me that seems like the worst level of mental illness.

Your right, i should have cleared that my state in particular sucks ass. I see lawsuits almost every year of criminals suing their victim and winning. We have castle doctine. but do not have stand your ground laws so in public the law seems to be more in favor criminals who dont used deadly force.

Also, I agree about no hesitation for self defense.
Though I started carrying Sabre Spray about a year ago so at least I have an option to deal with non lethal, violent threats.


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 01:33 PM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: bio_alchemist] * 1
    #25092110 -

bio_alchemist said:
Kryptos said:
Then, what is the time for laws?

Seems like taking guns away as a result of mass shootings has worked in every other country. UK, Australia...


@ kryptos none of those countries had a 2nd amendment. or a first amendment for that matter. You can be jailed for "hate speech"


And I wouldn't mind living there. Less chances of getting shot in the street. Or at a school. Just, in general. I've been working on German citizenship for a few months now, company has an office there and it's quite nice.

As for fighting against tyranny, if you think your AR-15 is gonna do anything against a predator drone, I want what you're smoking. And what's this fetish of "fighting against tyranny", anyway. You just want to fight? I think a much more reasonable way to deal with tyranny is leaving. that's why I maintain my Russian citizenship. I left there once, and if needed, I'll go back. I don't put myself in positions where the only option is to fight, that's dumb.


Unrelated: You carry a knife, a gun, and mace? Damn dude, you must be terrified of your neighborhood. Holy shit. If I needed to carry all three, I'd get the fuck outta there. That sounds like a war zone.

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: Kryptos]
    #25092222 -

Kryptos said:
And I wouldn't mind living there. Less chances of getting shot in the street. Or at a school. Just, in general.


Great! I support other countries, and their goals which are very different than the goal, culture, and values of my country. So please, I encourage you to move to a nice country that fits your goals.

As long as your not here trying to destroy mine

Kryptos said:
As for fighting against tyranny, if you think your AR-15 is gonna do anything against a predator drone, I want what you're smoking. And what's this fetish of "fighting against tyranny", anyway. You just want to fight? I think a much more reasonable way to deal with tyranny is leaving. that's why I maintain my Russian citizenship. I left there once, and if needed, I'll go back. I don't put myself in positions where the only option is to fight, that's dumb.



I was simply giving you the context of why we have a second amendment..
Though I disagree that 100 Million Americans with semi auto rifles. and communications technology would be a force to be reckoned with.

Our government isn't gonna just nuke us... Unless I missed a serious memo.
Also we are nearing the point of Robotics firearm technology for civilians as well. We can buy drones, robots, and develop software.
We can literally print guns in our own homes thanks to Defense Distributed and their efforts to put a rifle in every home that wants one. Metal sintering as well.

Did you see the massive Civil Disobedience in Washington in 2014? Police released an official notice that no one would be arrested for illegally carrying a firearm in public because over 1000 people showed up to commit a peaceful FELONY. They Showed up for the biggest civil disobedience regarding firearms I have seen in my lifetime. (Im sure main stream media ensured none of you heard about this) >_>

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/1000-gathered-largest-felony-civil-disobedience-rally-history/

Kryptos said:
Unrelated: You carry a knife, a gun, and mace? Damn dude, you must be terrified of your neighborhood. Holy shit. If I needed to carry all three, I'd get the fuck outta there. That sounds like a war zone.


Im not scared of a damn thing :bigjoint:
Except Communists :paranoid: (Also I don't carry a gun, we had our rights to bear arms removed from my state in 2012 :sad:)

Its a Bill of Rights, not Needs. I was a boy scout so I was taught to always be prepared. There is no downside for me owning or carrying guns
only positive's so it seems like common sense :shrug:

However Im assuiming unlike you, I have actually been a victim to gun violence. Robbed at gun point several times before I even turned 18 in what was considered a relatively safe city.

Those experiences are what CEMENTED my passion for firearms, and my instant Value for the freedom to never be a victim again.

Later in the day after one incident, I remember thinking back on those momentswhile I was looking down the barrel of a 357 revolver... "what if I had kids or a wife with me" "what if this guy wasn't just after valuables"

I have never been a victim since I turned 18, Someone tried to rob me at like 2am in the downtown area of my city. Told me to give them both of my phones (I was playing pokemon go) I Quickly backed up, as he transitioned from a fast walk to a jog  towards me with his demands.  (He had another friend waiting where he began approaching me from)

I quickly started backing up, (obviously my goal is to flee and LIVE not to fight) using verbal judo to tell him to back off. when he started to jog towards me from now about 5 feet away I reached and the moment I touched the handle of the sheathed blade on my hip and he IMMEDIATELY stopped in his tracks, said "alright" and started backing up. I got the hell out of there.

Just simply knowing that I was armed and was going to put up a fight immediately deterre'd any violence. Id like to think this would be the case most of the time.

Criminals arent looking for a fight, they are looking for victims...


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

Edited by bio_alchemist (03/26/18 05:33 PM)

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: bio_alchemist] * 1
    #25092315 -

Quote:
bio_alchemist said:

I remember thinking back on those moments while I was looking down the barrel of a 357 revolver... "what if I had kids or a wife with me" "what if this guy wasn't just after valuables"




THAT'S what you thought, before the age of 18, when "looking down the barel of a 357 revolver"?!?

seriously?

when i had a 38 special inches away from my forehead the first thing i thought was "i wonder if i can grab the barrel before he can pull the trigger."

then i handed over my wallet.

edit:  wait, ok, so that's what you think NOW while thinking back on that moment.  right?  if so, my fault, i misunderstood.  it just seemed really strange for you to think that in the moment, but apparently i was wrong when i first read it.  i hope.

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Re: NRA suing Florida for raising gun purchase age to 21 [Re: relic]
    #25092574 -

relic said:
THAT'S what you thought, before the age of 18, when "looking down the barel of a 357 revolver"?!?

seriously?

when i had a 38 special inches away from my forehead the first thing i thought was "i wonder if i can grab the barrel before he can pull the trigger."

then i handed over my wallet.

edit:  wait, ok, so that's what you think NOW while thinking back on that moment.  right?  if so, my fault, i misunderstood.  it just seemed really strange for you to think that in the moment, but apparently i was wrong when i first read it.  i hope.


I was 16, and Nah your right, my thoughts in the moment were very present and sobering. I was mostly in the moment and speaking with my mouth. No thoughts of resistance. though I did call him an Idiot. I can't remember any thoughts in my head to be honest. Thank You

Though what I did say were my thoughts that very same day.

Sorry I was speaking impulsively based off my emotion which I just realized made me say almost the same dumb emotionally charged shit as the Florida survivors who said "We stared down the barrel of the AR-15 ourselves."

I wasn't staring down the barrel, I was looking at a scumbag point a gun at my head. I was looking him in the eyes, not the gun.

Though it is true that that is the day I became passionate about firearms, and I did have all those thoughts later that day thinking about what happened.

I experimented with a lot of hallucinogens and other drugs between the age 13 - 16. I thought all the time about Freedom, what it meant to be Human, Analyzing our World, My country, my community, my future. I thought a lot about family. Later that year I took DMT for the first time, realized I was done experimenting with drugs and figured out what I wanted to do with my life and how to realistically achieve that.

I have learned a lot since then obviously.. Im 24 now. However, my Values, life Goals, and Roadmap for life has been the same since I was 16. It makes me feel really confident in who I am, what I want, and what I am trying to do with my life on this earth :mushroom2:


--------------------


"I prefer Dangerous Freedom over peaceful Slavery" ~ 3rd President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson.

:heart: Liberty ** Capitalism ** Love ** Guns ** Self Responsibility :heart:

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