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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24504211 -

sudly said:
I don't necessarily think or see why survival needs to be a magnitude greater than self actualisation. Understanding the personal self seems a great up lifter to me.


Sure, but that is because you aren't starving and you probably aren't in the middle of a war.

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24504213 -

Zanthius said:
sudly said:
I don't necessarily think or see why survival needs to be a magnitude greater than self actualisation. Understanding the personal self seems a great up lifter to me.


Sure, but that is because you aren't starving and you probably aren't in the middle of a war.


But I'm not in a war, and as I've referenced the order in which needs are met is variable.

Quote:
The needs described in the theory appear to be universal. However, the order in which these needs are met had little impact on people's satisfaction with life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21688922



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24504216 -

sudly said:
But I'm not in a war, and as I've referenced the order of needs is variable.


Variable to some degree. If it was completely variable his theory would be useless, and it certainly wouldnt be depicted as a hierarchy.

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24504219 -

Maybe it's just a meaningful gesture that got us thinking deeper on our topic of interest.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24505116 -

Made a new version. Even looks a little like a mushroom.




Why I put the passion for mystery on top:




How this relates to magic mushrooms:








Edited by Zanthius (07/24/17 05:42 PM)

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24506239 -

Zanthius said:
blingbling said:
I actually tend to agree with religious ideologues on a lot of matters, particularly with regards to atheism ie. that atheism doesn't offer a viable solution for the problem of life's meaning.


Well, with your argument you seem to imply that atheism is a specific ideology, and that all atheists follow this ideology. Atheism isn't one specific ideology. There might be atheistic communists, atheistic socialists, atheistic capitalists, atheistic environmentalists, atheistic bayesians, and so on. Atheism just implies the absence of a certain type of supernatural belief in an ideology.

More importantly, how people feel about how meaningful life is, might be just as much related to education and culture, as to if they are religious or not. I wouldn't for example be surprised if Montessori education made people find more meaning in life.



Education motivated by intellectual curiosity



I'm not saying that there aren't varieties of atheism, I'm saying no variety of atheism can answer the problem of life's meaning at a cosmic level. Science tells us we are small, mostly inconsequential creatures at the cosmic level. All atheists no matter what variety must grapple with this. Religious ideologues do too, but they have traditions and myths to fall back on that atheist don't, at least not in the same way.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Re: Disenchantment [Re: Kurt]
    #24506254 -

Kurt said:
Had another argument coming, but I think the positions have been stated. I consider your position (at least so far as I understand your "disenchantment" in my terms) seriously.


Sounds like your a little scared to go down this rabbit whole with me. I don't blame you.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24506388 -

Zanthius said:
Made a new version. Even looks a little like a mushroom.



Why I put the passion for mystery on top:



How this relates to magic mushrooms:




I don't see how or why facts are supposed to lack an explanation, I mean people need to find explanations for facts too. e.g. plants respire through their stomata, these stomata open and close to allow the intake of carbon dioxide and the release of oxygen.

Understanding those facts and the explanations behind them seems a reasonable way to acquire a reasonable understanding of a topic. 

Plus I'm sure with there being individual diversity and all that some folk do find the facts rather interesting too.

And back to psilocybin, magic mushrooms tend to act on 5-HT receptors, serotonergic pathways and the sympathetic nervous system which is responsible for the fight or flight response. I would agree in the sense that stimulating these nerve pathways with psilocybin is a viable method for facilitating growth in emotional intelligence. 

All I'd say is that sometimes a mystery can lead to the discoveries of a fact. I think curiosity and self interest motivate us to find our desires and nurture our curiosity with healthy skepticism and action. 

@blingbling
Quote:
blingbling said: Science tells us we are small, mostly inconsequential creatures at the cosmic level. All atheists no matter what variety must grapple with this. Religious ideologues do too, but they have traditions and myths to fall back on that atheist don't, at least not in the same way.



Science says we are adaptable and capable human beings with skills that can be developed. It also shows us we occupy only a small corner of the cosmos, and that we should treat our home with the respect it deserves.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24506545 -

sudly said:
Plus I'm sure with there being individual diversity and all that some folk do find the facts rather interesting too.


Much better to present the topic as a mystery and rather help/guide the pupil to the explanation, rather than just explain everything. At least for children.

Inconsistency with Prior Knowledge Triggers Children’s Causal Explanatory Reasoning

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24506548 -

Lol and most adults. Raises hand guilty. I wonder if risk aversion may play a part in confirmation bias in some convoluted or not way.

Edited by Jaegar (07/25/17 08:00 AM)

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: Zanthius]
    #24506592 -

Oh lol for kids sure, but it doesn't mean the childs explanations are always going to be correct. Presenting a topic and explaining the content within it to construct a well referenced idea seems alright too.

Quote:
In sum, the data provide empirical evidence that inconsistent events motivate children to construct explanations, thereby suggesting that children’s explanations function in the service of discovery.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039682/




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24507694 -

Science says we are adaptable and capable human beings with skills that can be developed. It also shows us we occupy only a small corner of the cosmos, and that we should treat our home with the respect it deserves.


I agree, but I feel like you are glossing over my point as if it has no relevance. I think you'll find that one of the contributing factors towards this lack of respect is an attempt to find ones place in the universe at the expense of the environment and other peoples wellbeing.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: blingbling]
    #24507742 -

What have I done to negatively impact or be at the expense of the environment and the well being of other people, can you tell me?

As I see it there is no inherent meaning to life so we don't need atheists to answer anything, they're not the ones claiming anything like a god or deity exists. Why not look for meaning at the significance of the global scale instead of relying on some cosmic scale of insignificance to find meaning or value?

And I don't know what traditions or myths someone without a religion is supposed to be falling back on other than the empirical evidence provided by centuries of humans practicing the scientific method.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24507795 -

sudly said:
What have I done to negatively impact or be at the expense of the environment and the well being of other people, can you tell me?

As I see it there is no inherent meaning to life so we don't need atheists to answer anything, they're not the ones claiming anything like a god or deity exists. Why not look for meaning at the significance of the global scale instead of relying on some cosmic scale of insignificance to find meaning or value?

And I don't know what traditions or myths someone without a religion is supposed to be falling back on other than the empirical evidence provided by centuries of humans practicing the scientific method.



I don't know you personally so I don't know your impact on the environment. But I can tell you what I see around me, and that is people trying to get ahead in the rat race with a certain ferocity that I believe stems from them trying to forget their place in the universe by climbing the social hirachy. A social hirachy that is built on environmental degradation. I can point you towards some psychological studies that lend evidence to my point if you like. When we have no Gods we create idols and sometimes follow them to hell.

If we don't need atheists to answer the question then why have this thread? Why are so many of us asking the question? I think it has a lot to do with us largely giving up on religion. And as for the issue of meaning at a global scale, that is a lot better than trying to fill yourself up with commodities or other hedonistic endeavours, but it still falls short for most people in my opinion, and creates an idol out of the environment which is just one small nod in an ever expanding universe.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #24508462 -

blingbling said:
I agree, but I feel like you are glossing over my point as if it has no relevance. I think you'll find that one of the contributing factors towards this lack of respect is an attempt to find ones place in the universe at the expense of the environment and other peoples wellbeing.


This is off-topic so please create a new thread where you talk about the correlation between atheism and pollution.

I actually think there is an inverse correlation, because some of the most religious countries I have been to are also the most polluted. But why not make a correlation graph? You just need to correlate these 2 tables:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/rankings_by_country.jsp

Or if you want to create a correlation graph between atheism to homicide rate, you can use this table:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Edited by Zanthius (07/26/17 01:25 AM)

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: blingbling]
    #24508558 -

Quote:
blingbling said: people trying to get ahead in the rat race with a certain ferocity that I believe stems from them trying to forget their place in the universe by climbing the social hierarchy. A social hierarchy that is built on environmental degradation.


That's republican 101 as evident by the internal decimation of the EPA. Vote 1 progressive, here it's about proper use of government taxes and public representation over that of corporations, billionaire class donors and large business interests.

e.g.
Quote:
Scott Pruitt, the EPA administrator, has chosen not to renew the terms of nine of the 18-member board of scientific counselors, which advises the EPA on the quality and accuracy of the science it produces. The group, largely made up of academics, is set to be replaced by representatives from industries that the EPA regulates.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/08/epa-board-scientific-scott-pruitt-climate-change


Some people don't consider themselves to hold atheistic beliefs eh. Giving up on religion and going with the tried and tested methods of science is the idea I'm digging.

I'm also down to create an idol out of the environment we live in which supports every single piece of life on earth. The cosmos is nice and expansive and all though most of it is not our home. I wouldn't want to take for granted the resources our environment provides us from water, to ores and food.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24508685 -

That's interesting Zanthius.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24508763 -

sudly said:
I'm also down to create an idol out of the environment


That's interesting. Here are some explanations of the meaning of the word idol.


1.
an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed.
2.
Bible.
an image of a deity other than God.
the deity itself.
3.
any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion:
Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.
4.
a mere image or semblance of something, visible but without substance, as a phantom.
5.
a figment of the mind; fantasy.
6.
a false conception or notion; fallacy.


So, you don't have a problem with blind admiration, phantasy as a basis for the meaning of life? I feel that when we drill down on points like this we come to a place where the truth bumps up against our phantasies and we are left wanting. I think that "Mother Nature" is a useless concept without "Father Sky" or in other words global significance without cosmic significance might be better than mere personal significance, but it is still not enough for the average person to maintain psychological equanimity.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The meaning of life [Re: blingbling]
    #24508773 -

Here's the one I followed.
Quote:
idol: a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered


I think looking at the real world and the environment to understand it is a dandy way to begin to find our own meaning in life.

What about when truth replaces fantasies? As in when bird watching you can think you've identified one species, when in fact it may have been another.

Quantum physics is a useless topic if you don't know what you're talking about.

Mother nature is inclusive of the sky(atmosphere and such) and the vast cosmos(natures laws are everywhere) but the main focus of life as we know it is here on Earth for now, because it's only here, until of course we find some sort of self replicating goo on a distant moon in a distant future.

Personal significance, global significance and cosmic significance seem significant to me, how to find them?

Find yo self :feelsgoodman:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: The meaning of life [Re: sudly]
    #24508780 -

I can see that you seem to have found your meaning, but I remain sceptical of "Mother Nature" being a useful concept for all. Sudley, what do you think happens to your mind, your experiences, and your achievements here on this earth you admire so much, after you die? I'm very interested to hear your answer.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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