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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Means to an End
    #2205544 - 12/28/03 01:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I was having a stoned conversation last night with some Catholic friends of mine, and one of them was saying that he thinks God made the universe for us and other sentient beings on other planets, but that all the plants and animals are here for our benefit. I see this as a sign of egocentrism. People have a natural tendency to view other things(and other people) as means to an end. We have trouble thinking of things as existing independently of us. To do this, I believe, is one of the first steps in transcending our egos.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205548 - 12/28/03 01:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In the context that you're speaking, i'm not sure what you mean by "means to an end".

If you're saying that people think humans are the only important form of life then I understand. Yes, people think that. I don't agree with that. I'm as much God as a wolf or a cow is IMO.




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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Learyfan]
    #2205559 - 12/28/03 01:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

By "means to an end" I mean in terms of other creatures or even other people being there to serve our interests. Like when you see certain animals as being there for us to eat(I'm by no means vegetarian, and I don't consider eating meat to be wrong, but I'm just saying that those animals have an existence outside of our agenda). We tend to view people in the same light. We think of friends as being there to entertain and amuse us, or we see our significant other as being there to satisfy our sexual and emotional needs. We forget that these people have lives outside of us.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205560 - 12/28/03 01:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm one of those that thinks animals and plants are here for our benefit, but I'm open to having my way of thinking changed. :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205563 - 12/28/03 01:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, what your friend was talking about is a view that's existed since the dark ages. Anyhoo, I don't see why we should be more important to a God than any other kind of animal or plant. The plants, especially. If he invented pot, shrooms and peyote, guess what he's doing all day, huh?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2205566 - 12/28/03 01:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Good for you. And what were they here for before humans existed? And what will they be here for when our species dies out like the dinosaurs?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205571 - 12/28/03 01:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That one's easy, they were evolving towards a form that would be useful for us to benefit from. And to the second one: when humanity ceases to exist, that will be at Judgement Day. There would be no need for a world after that, because we'd all be in one from amongst:

- Hell
- Purgatory
- Heaven


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205572 - 12/28/03 01:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Good for you.  And what were they here for before humans existed?  And what will they be here for when our species dies out like the dinosaurs?




Wasn't God just getting the earth ready for us by providing the feast? 

Weren't they our barbeque and vegies???  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2205617 - 12/28/03 01:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

- Hell
- Purgatory
- Heaven




Not to derail the thread, but why would God need to punish us for anything? Can he be damaged?






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OfflineFunguy
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2205655 - 12/28/03 02:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, from a Biblical point of view, humans did not start eating meat until after the Great Flood. Before then humans were vegetarians . So we were originally meant to eat plants.


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OTD UNDERDOGS

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Funguy]
    #2205675 - 12/28/03 02:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I guess I'm waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to eat meat.

I know someone who says that we were once a hunter/gatherer society. At least as of 40,000 years ago, we were hunters and meat-eaters. He says that the meat-eaters were healthier than the gatherers.

http://girevikmagazine.com/six/interviewdevany.htm

Just because we didn't initially eat meat doesn't mean we weren't meant to, does it?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2205679 - 12/28/03 02:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Who's saying it's bad to eat meat? I'm just saying that that's not all that animals are here for.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Funguy]
    #2205764 - 12/28/03 03:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Funguy said:
Actually, from a Biblical point of view, humans did not start eating meat until after the Great Flood. Before then humans were vegetarians . So we were originally meant to eat plants.




What is there that can actually validate this? I mean, seriously, I want to know how it is safe for us to assume this.
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205799 - 12/28/03 04:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I was having a stoned conversation last night with some Catholic friends of mine, and one of them was saying that he thinks God made the universe for us and other sentient beings on other planets, but that all the plants and animals are here for our benefit.  I see this as a sign of egocentrism.  People have a natural tendency to view other things(and other people) as means to an end.  We have trouble thinking of things as existing independently of us.  To do this, I believe, is one of the first steps in transcending our egos.





Be careful not to go too far the other way, though.  Otherwise, you may lose faith in the interconnectedness of all things :wink:

Sometimes I catch myself making the complete opposite mistake of what you are describing: Assuming that all other people and things are acting purely out of their own intrest.  Its an equally egregious error.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Means to an End [Re: silversoul7]
    #2205820 - 12/28/03 04:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Who's saying it's bad to eat meat? I'm just saying that that's not all that animals are here for.




Okay, that's what I thought you were saying, but I understand now. So, what else are animals here for? I'm serious. I've never really thought about it. I know about being part of the food chain, other than for human consumption. Are they here for our pleasure? For the pleasure of each other?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Means to an End [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2206004 - 12/28/03 06:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think everyone and everything is ALWAYS acting purely out of self-interest, but I think we have a natural tendency to do this, and we must overcome this if we are to transcend our egos.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2206013 - 12/28/03 06:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Who's saying it's bad to eat meat? I'm just saying that that's not all that animals are here for.




Okay, that's what I thought you were saying, but I understand now. So, what else are animals here for? I'm serious. I've never really thought about it. I know about being part of the food chain, other than for human consumption. Are they here for our pleasure? For the pleasure of each other?



Animals are here to live their lives, the same as us. There is no ultimate purpose to our lives. We are simply here. It is the same with animals, and plants for that matter. Weed and mushrooms were not put here to fuck you up. They are here simply to exist, just as we are.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2206038 - 12/28/03 06:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
He says that the meat-eaters were healthier than the gatherers.




Hunter/gatherers is a term for the entire society. It's not like there were societies that only hunted, and ones that only gathered, the same tribe both gathered AND hunted. A purely meat-based diet is unhealthy, and so is a vegan diet. Combine both (perhaps decreasing the amount of meat we're used to eating, because an adult doesn't need as much meat as a child does) and you'll be fine.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Frog]
    #2206042 - 12/28/03 06:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"Well, I guess I'm waiting for someone to tell me why it's bad to eat meat."

I don't think it's bad to eat meat, but I do think it's bad to raise life and keep it penned/caged, just to eventually slaughter it in its prime. Now think about it, would you want some higher life form to do that to the human race-let us mate, keep us in a cage with a bunch of other humans, and then one day in the prime of your life (or in some cases before) pull you in another room one day and sever your head with a big knife? I sure would not want that to happen to me, and since I have options in this day and age, I have decided not to contribute to those practices.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Means to an End [Re: Learyfan]
    #2206046 - 12/28/03 06:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Not to derail the thread, but why would God need to punish us for anything? Can he be damaged?



I didn't say I bought it, in fact I was spewing a truckload of cow dung.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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