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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
Libertarians and corporations.
    #2397907 - 03/03/04 12:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm curious as to what the free-market types think of massive international corporations. Many of these companies have more power than governments. They have the ability to lobby, buy off pundits, manipulate the media and public opinion (a good example of this being the Monstanto-Fox rBGH fiasco: http://www.foxbghsuit.com/).

How, in a system that strives to reduce government power, and increase market freedom, are we supposed to control corporate power, and criminal acts?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: Phluck]
    #2398056 - 03/03/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Many libertarians do not recognize this, but corporate law (as it is currently) is not truly in line with laissez-faire or free-market capitalism. It provides personhood in the eyes of the law to what is essentially a creation of the law (a corporation), and provides legal cover that the managers and owners of the corporation use to avoid responsibilities in ways that would not be allowed if these people were not shielded by corporate law. Corporations are granted numerous special priviledges by governments, their interests are protected and promoted at taxpayer's expense in a variety of ways.

In my opinion coporate law needs to be changed and corporations should not have any kind of 'personhood' in the eyes of the law. Only individual citizens should be allowed to donate to political candidates or causes or lobbying efforts (and still being allowed to use such organizations as the ACLU or the NRA). If individuals who own or run corporations would like to lobby, they should only be allowed to do so as citizens, using the same devices that are open to all citizens. All political donations should be a matter of open public record. There should be no corporate welfare, no government involvement in the promotion of business of any kind, except to protect property rights, holding parties to contractual obligations and adjudicate disputes. Corporations that do business in foreign countries should be on their own and not rely on the federal government to bail them out via stablizing local regimes, or providing economic or military aid to local regimes in the hopes of 'opening up' local markets or allowing the establishment of U.S. based businesses nor should they be beneficiaries of government promotion campaigns.

... and another thing, compliance with government standards and regulations should NEVER be allowed to be used as a cover to shield companies from tort actions.

That's just off the top of my head...


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: Evolving]
    #2398078 - 03/03/04 01:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)


If I own a business with 500,000 employees, and I donate to a canditate that will make it easier for me to sell my products, thus expanding and building more operation centers, how isthat bad for the "little man"?


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2398116 - 03/03/04 01:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

depends on how much you donate and who you
donate it to.

if you drop $50 in the mail to Congressman Smith,
and all the other guys are doing the same, then
it's not likely it's going to be bad for the little man.

on the other hand, assuming someone who owns
such a large organization is probably donating an
exponentially larger amount of money, it's safe to
assume that while the little guy continues to donate
his $50 and you donate, say, $50,000, it's likely
that the congressman will do what he can to appease
his cash cow.

with this added political advantage your organization
may be able to compete unfairly against others...

say you find out ahead of time where the new stadium
is going to be located, or if the fed's likely going to
increase or decrease interest rates, or that terrorists
are planning on flying united airlines planes into the
twin towers next week...

hypothetically speaking, of course.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2398124 - 03/03/04 01:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Why should government be promoting ANY business? When government uses taxpayer money to promote a business, they are using money that the taxpayer may have been able to use to better his own life. What opportunites are lost to the taxpayer who now has less disposable income? By what moral standard may a business via government proxy extort money from some individuals to promote it's product or service?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2398133 - 03/03/04 01:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

And pork barrel projects?
A corporation ensures that freindly politicians are kept happy, at a cost of a few million dollars. In return, government programs costing billions of dollars are put in place, and the primary beneficiaries of these programs are corporations.
Example: ethanol subsidies and ADM
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2398151 - 03/03/04 01:44 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What if you're paying off inspectors to overlook violations? Or pressuring scientists into publishing findings that claim a drug is safe when full studies have not been carried out?

Sometimes the laws that allow you to open more centers and make more money are laws that allow you to lower wages and treat workers poorly... or trade laws that allow you to close local factories and hire workers in poor countries for extremely low wages, putting americans out of work.

Often the laws that are preventing companies from maximizing profits are the laws that prevent them from treating workers poorly, from producing unsafe or unreliable products, and from creating environmental damage.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: Evolving]
    #2399424 - 03/03/04 06:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Evolving writes:

Many libertarians do not recognize this, but corporate law (as it is currently) is not truly in line with laissez-faire or free-market capitalism. It provides personhood in the eyes of the law to what is essentially a creation of the law (a corporation), and provides legal cover that the managers and owners of the corporation use to avoid responsibilities in ways that would not be allowed if these people were not shielded by corporate law. Corporations are granted numerous special priviledges by governments, their interests are protected and promoted at taxpayer's expense in a variety of ways.

Absolutely correct.

In my opinion coporate law needs to be changed and corporations should not have any kind of 'personhood' in the eyes of the law.

Agreed.

pinky


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Libertarians and corporations. [Re: Phred]
    #2400111 - 03/03/04 09:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I can't fucking believe this. I agree with Evolving. Let's go another step further and stop collecting taxes on corporations. The profits are already taxed as their owner's income. This would help avoid the problem of these fuckers keeping two sets of books, one that looks bad for the tax man, and one that looks good for stock buyers. All perfectly legal of course. And yeah let's lift that bullshit veil of corporate protection.

There is no fucking way I'll be able to sleep tonight.


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