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 newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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 Libertarianism 
#4168537 - 05/12/05 09:29 PM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
I flirted with libertarianism when I was in college, but soon realized the fundamental problem with it: all success is predicated on people behaving a certain way, a way which 10,000 years of human experience shows is antithetical to human nature. (This by the way, is true of many ideologies - communism, facsim, etc.) As an example, the libertarian view on pollution (in a nutshell) is that government should not be involved. The marketplace will triumph because people collectively will boycott companies that pollute, and individually sue companies that pollute their specific air or land. But how does word get out that a specific company is polluting? Easy enough to make sure newspapers and television that do this kind of investigative reporting don't get ad dollars - under libertarianism there would be nothing to prevent corporations generating a blacklist of media outlets to kill. And if a multibillion dollar corporation says, "hey, my twenty highly paid scientific experts say that pollution didn't come from my drainpipe", how does a $30K/year individual marshall a lawsuit against them? Especially if it is legal for the corporation to call in favors from other corporations and have that individual fired, their mortgage forclosed, their health insurance dropped, and their kids kicked out of school. Public approbation? How does the individual talk to "The Public"? If a few people do get wind of it, the polluters will run some happiness-and-fluff commercials about how they really care about the environment and are working hard every day to protect it, and any tiny disturbance in their bottom line will be reversed (anyone else remember those bizarre 1970's era commercials that showed a thoughtful, intelligent Mom making sure her kids got only the nutritionally best snacks: Hostess Twinkies"?)
Bottom line of the libertarians: "Well, if people aren't willing to fight for something, then the market has decided, and they have to accept the consequences." The problem with that is the little guy did figure out a way to fight the big corporations without having to spend all day every day monitoring and coordinating. A strong representational government. But the first thing the libertarians want to see killed is that government.
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He didn't answer the question I most wanted answers: What happens to the losers in a Liberitarian society? What will happen to the people who, through no fault of their own, can't find a job or become productive members of society? Or those who become invalids?
Two examples: My fiancee worked hospice care for mentally disabled adults. One of them was a guy who got blindsided by an SUV while he was on his motorcycle. He went from being a well-paid metal worker to a grown man with the mental skills of a two-year old. Would the burden of his care be placed on his family, or the family of the person who hit him? Neither of them could support his care.
My future brother-in-law has muscular dystrophy, and has gone from walking around and caring for himself to a wheelchair and complete dependence on others in six months. He gets some help from MDA, but without government assistance my future mother-in-law could not afford treatments for him that could extend his life so he could be cured in the future. Does he deserve to die because he was born with a congenital disease? And I don't trust that a donations-funded organization could provide for him. What happens when they have a bad year? Would his medication be cut? Would his therapy and school aid be dropped because they can't afford it?
Neither quote is exactly representative of my ideas. I had posted these previously but I would like a fresh opinion on them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
 
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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When asked to describe my political beliefs nowadays, I'll often say that I lean towards libertarianism, rather than actually calling myself a libertarian. By that I mean that I'm a social liberal and fiscal conservative who hates taxes and generally distrusts government, prefering it to be small, decentralized, and limited by the bounds of the Constitution. I distance myself from Rothbardian libertarianism and Randian objectivism, instead preferring the Georgist model, which I find is more accommodating to the needs of the little guy, without harming productivity, increasing government bureacracy, or redistributing legitimately earned wealth, as more liberal schemes tend to do. I still support the Libertarian Party, though.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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libertarianism is like communism, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life. they have some good ideas, but then again so did marx
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
libertarianism is like communism, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life.
It hasn't been tried, how do you know?
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they have some good ideas, but then again so did marx
Other than the 'opiate of the masses' line, I can't remember anything that Marx said that was a good idea.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
libertarianism is like communism, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life.
Neither of those look good on paper.
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 Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 33,702
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 7 hours, 22 minutes
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
When asked to describe my political beliefs nowadays, I'll often say that I lean towards libertarianism, rather than actually calling myself a libertarian. By that I mean that I'm a social liberal and fiscal conservative who hates taxes and generally distrusts government, prefering it to be small, decentralized, and limited by the bounds of the Constitution. I distance myself from Rothbardian libertarianism and Randian objectivism, instead preferring the Georgist model, which I find is more accommodating to the needs of the little guy, without harming productivity, increasing government bureacracy, or redistributing legitimately earned wealth, as more liberal schemes tend to do. I still support the Libertarian Party, though.
 Zuh.
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Mp3 of the month: Wild Things - Another Colored Ink Drawing (A.C.I.D.)
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 
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Quote:
cb9fl said:
What will happen to the people who, through no fault of their own, can't find a job or become productive members of society? Or those who become invalids?
Two examples: My fiancee worked hospice care for mentally disabled adults. One of them was a guy who got blindsided by an SUV while he was on his motorcycle. He went from being a well-paid metal worker to a grown man with the mental skills of a two-year old. Would the burden of his care be placed on his family, or the family of the person who hit him? Neither of them could support his care.
My future brother-in-law has muscular dystrophy, and has gone from walking around and caring for himself to a wheelchair and complete dependence on others in six months. He gets some help from MDA, but without government assistance my future mother-in-law could not afford treatments for him that could extend his life so he could be cured in the future. Does he deserve to die because he was born with a congenital disease? And I don't trust that a donations-funded organization could provide for him. What happens when they have a bad year? Would his medication be cut? Would his therapy and school aid be dropped because they can't afford it?
This is where I have a major problem with this philosophy. My guess would be these two would just die because they aren't "productive". Rather inhumane if you ask me....
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
libertarianism is like communism, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life.
It hasn't been tried, how do you know?
hmm i seem to remember at the turn of the century coporations were operating unchecked and they could be trusted to "do the right thing" plus i like my 40hr work week and breaks and overtime...so fuck libertarianism
Edited by KingOftheThing (05/13/05 12:12 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
Quote:
Autonomous said:
Quote:
KingOftheThing said:
libertarianism is like communism, it looks good on paper but doesnt work in real life.
It hasn't been tried, how do you know?
hmm i seem to remember at the turn of the century coporations were operating unchecked and they could be trusted to "do the right thing" plus i like my 40hr work week and breaks and overtime...so fuck libertarianism
Corporations have nothing to do with libertarianism. Corporations are legal fictions created by the government, given special benefits above anything granted to normal citizens. If you're going to debunk libertarianism, debunk it for what it is.
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
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I see none of the Libertarians have actually responded to the valid questions in your original post!
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Always Smi2le
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Paradigm is right, corporations are a creation of the government. They give government granted privileges shielding persons from individual responsibility for actions performed under the corporation. Not only that, due to a Supreme Court case in 1886, corporations are now considered 'legal persons.' So, we see that there was no libertarian system in place, contrary to what you implied.
You should not neglect the other facts that at the turn of the century, large numbers of people chose to move to large population centers from rural areas and chose to work for large corporations. (We see similar patterns being repeated in China today) If those people had chosen to remain on family farms, engage in child labor practices and worked extraordinarily long hours (as was the practice) would you be showing the same reflexive response against family farms? As my mother is fond of saying, "it takes two to tango,"
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Many people seem unable to distinguish between Libertarianism and Anarchy. These people have somehow gotten the idea there would be no laws against pollution in a Libertarian society. Where they get this idea from I haven't the foggiest notion -- dumping toxic waste onto another's property is an action clearly in violation of Libertarian tenets. So quote number one is completely irrelevant to any discussion of Libertarianism.
As for quote number two -- what will be done about those unable to support themselves -- in a Libertarian society no one will prevent you from supporting them, nor will anyone prevent you from persuading as many others as you possibly can to assist you in supporting them.
Phred
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4170411 - 05/13/05 10:41 AM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
As for quote number two -- what will be done about those unable to support themselves -- in a Libertarian society no one will prevent you from supporting them, nor will anyone prevent you from persuading as many others as you possibly can to assist you in supporting them.
Phred
No one will prevent you from supporting them, or stop you from presuading others to assist you in a non-Libertarian society either. However people aren't that altruistic on their own. I volunteer at a Salvation Army homeless shelter/soup kitchen and there's never enough of anything, believe me. While it is true lots would try to help, most people couldn't give a damn what happened to some permanently disabled person, as long as they thenselves could get a shiny new SUV every year......
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4170509 - 05/13/05 11:12 AM (18 years, 23 days ago) |
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dumping toxic waste onto another's property is an action clearly in violation of Libertarian tenets.
So how about a company buying up land and using it to dump their toxic waste? Or how about a company spewing tons of polution in the air? In at least the first case the company may not be directly dumping their waste on another person's land. However the waste would most likely find its way through the ground to water reserves and thus polute a large area.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
So how about a company buying up land and using it to dump their toxic waste?
You mean similar to the way that government now provides specified dumping facilities only for that kind of waste? No problem. If it's okay for government to do that, it's okay for private people to do that as well, no?
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Or how about a company spewing tons of polution in the air?
Same as if they spew it into water. Not allowed. Why do you feel a Libertarian society would allow this to occur? There is no difference in principle between heaving cyanide crystals onto your neighbour's land and dumping them into the river that runs by your neigbour's farm or sending cyanide fumes into the air upwind of your neighbour. Libertarians are capable of grasping the underlying principle in all these cases.
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In at least the first case the company may not be directly dumping their waste on another person's land. However the waste would most likely find its way through the ground to water reserves and thus polute a large area.
If it does, then they of course would be held legally liable, just as if waste from a government-run waste disposal facility got into the groundwater. Oh, wait.... if that were to happen the government would be in the clear, because it can't be sued.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Le_Canard]
#4171354 - 05/13/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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No one will prevent you from supporting them, or stop you from presuading others to assist you in a non-Libertarian society either.
True. What's your point?
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However people aren't that altruistic on their own. I volunteer at a Salvation Army homeless shelter/soup kitchen and there's never enough of anything, believe me.
Do you honestly believe that if people were paying a tenth the taxes they do today -- and knew full well there were no tax-funded relief programs at all -- they would give no more to charity than they do today? If you do believe that, could you please provide some supporting evidence for this? Or if not evidence, then at least some kind of argument as to why they wouldn't?
Phred
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 2 days
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4171552 - 05/13/05 03:34 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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I also think that people are far more sympathetic to others who, through no fault of their own, get into trouble. They generally have less sympathy for people who fuck themselves up. You have the right to destroy yourself. I have no obligation to bail you out when you do.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4171591 - 05/13/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
So how about a company buying up land and using it to dump their toxic waste?
You mean similar to the way that government now provides specified dumping facilities only for that kind of waste? No problem. If it's okay for government to do that, it's okay for private people to do that as well, no?
I think the issue here is procedure. The government has very specific regulations as to how to go about dumping waste in designated areas. If you're going to impose those regulations on private dumps as well, fine. But enforcement might cost a bit more. Plus, landfill locations are strategically located to minimize the damage they cause--something private landowners may not have the luxury of being able to provide.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 2 days
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I don't think libertarianism is aversive to zoning laws
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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There are many flavors of 'libertarianism.'
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
I think the issue here is procedure. The government has very specific regulations as to how to go about dumping waste in designated areas. If you're going to impose those regulations on private dumps as well, fine.
Who gives two shits about procedure? Who is to say the government's way of doing thing is the only way -- or even for that matter the correct way? It's no secret that governments are the largest environmental offenders of all.
Either the stuff remains within the boundaries of the property (dumpsite) or it doesn't. If it stays within the boundaries, no one need do anything. If it escapes the boundaries, action is then taken. There's no need to make this more complicated than it is.
Phred
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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I think the questions of the Libertarian party's environmental postions are legit because those positions seem to vary quite a bit. Some are extreme to the point of saying that nuclear dumping offshore would be okay, as it's no one's property. Others seem to support some form of government regulation. Or at least specific laws on the issue. Really all over the map. Same with many other issues.
Autonomous, as usual, is correct. Many flavors. Suprising for a party that likes to flaunt its adherence to relatively simple ideals.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4171964 - 05/13/05 05:33 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Who gives two shits about procedure? Who is to say the government's way of doing thing is the only way -- or even for that matter the correct way? It's no secret that governments are the largest environmental offenders of all.
True, but that's like saying that since government has been the biggest initiator of force that therefore government shouldn't exist, ignoring the fact that government does, in fact, have a role to play in stopping or preventing the initiation of force. Simply because they do their job badly is not to say that there isn't a job there that they need to do.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Phred]
#4172256 - 05/13/05 06:51 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
No one will prevent you from supporting them, or stop you from presuading others to assist you in a non-Libertarian society either.
True. What's your point?
Well, I got the impression from your previous post that only in a Libertarian run society would people be "allowed" to make charitable donations...
Quote:
However people aren't that altruistic on their own. I volunteer at a Salvation Army homeless shelter/soup kitchen and there's never enough of anything, believe me.
Do you honestly believe that if people were paying a tenth the taxes they do today -- and knew full well there were no tax-funded relief programs at all -- they would give no more to charity than they do today? If you do believe that, could you please provide some supporting evidence for this? Or if not evidence, then at least some kind of argument as to why they wouldn't?
I couldn't spew facts and figures to support this, nor could I do the same to support your argument either. However, having traveled around this planet almost 35 times, I think I know a bit of human nature. Whilst there are some truly good and charitable people out there, most people couldn't give a damn about anyone but themselves, I'm sad to say.
Just to add, this is the only problem I see with this political philosophy. I do like the idea of limiting some government powers. We have too damn many laws, IMHO......
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shroommachine
Stranger
Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 1,202
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
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Re: Libertarianism [Re: Le_Canard]
#4172957 - 05/13/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 22 days ago) |
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Corruption, Greed, and Theft will always find a way. No system of government will ever create a perfect society, because everyone is crazy.
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And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.
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