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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kurt]
    #22092639 -

You gotta give it to Ped, he spurs some discussion. I also always appreciate his eloquence and wish I had that same degree of control in my word selection. :thumbup:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kickle]
    #22092641 -

>> I have not seen a study done where a certain "type" of depressive is more suited to an SSRI then another.

The monoamine hypothesis of depression has been the prevailing model for over 30 years.  Until recently, the monoamine hypothesis was perceived as a unified hypothesis of depression.  New research has indicated this is not the case, and that major depressive disorder is considerably more complicated than previously thought. 

New hypotheses involving the glutamate and opioid systems are only now gaining ground.  The glucocorticoid hypothesis emerged about 25 years after the monoamine hypothesis.  The neurogenesis/plasticity hypothesis of depression has only recently developed into a cogent model.  These models of depression have not been fully elucidated, and do not yet furnish sufficient basis for the development of new medications.  The development of a new medication requires approximately ten years, and another 5-10 years of post-marketing analysis to establish and compare its efficacy to previous medications.  It is impossible to compare the efficacy of existing drugs against drugs which do not yet exist.

The thin margin of efficacy emerging about SSRI/SNRI medications indicates that the monoamine hypothesis of depression does not encompass the pathophysiology of the disorder.  It does not indicate that medical science is fraudulent at its core, because that conclusion is an enormous leap of logic.

To be absolutely clear, SSRI/SNRI medications have saved lives, and have given people a new lease on life.  These are the people whose depression proceeds according to a monoamine deficit. 

Would you want to live in a world without David Letterman?


>> I just haven't seen any replacements that are worth considering. Considering here meaning having empirical evidence to support them.

These replacements have not yet been developed.


>> Nor have I seen a decrease in the amount of SSRI's that are being prescribed.

It is impossible to prescribe medications which have not been invented.  In the absence of alternatives, existing therapies are necessarily selected.


>> No one on the payroll is blind to this. They see when their findings aren't reported. And it's nothing new. Does that stop researchers from lining up for a paycheck?

Studies are commissioned through third-parties who release their data to the pharmaceutical company.  They do not have access to data gathered by other third parties, and cannot compare their results to others' results.  Pharmaceutical companies are careful to compartmentalize their research in this way, so as to retain executive control over which information reaches regulatory authorities and peer review.  The justification for this is "protection of intellectual property", but in reality its about controlling information and outcomes to the detriment of medical science.

The pharmaceutical industry ≠ medical science.


>> Not reporting negative findings is bad form, bad practice, and bad science.

People can't report on information they don't have access to.  Are there people positioned to blow the whistle who choose not to in order to protect their livelihood?  Almost certainly.  Do these people represent the whole of medical science?  Of course not.


>> Scientists are not perfect. The method does not protect humans from being human. Of course there is good science. Fuck yea!

At least we agree on something.  What I am interested in is properly quantifying exactly where the faults and flaws exist.


>> lots [sic] to their own piggishness

>> the piss-poor ethics of the petroleum industry pales in comparison to the 'ethics' of the pharmaceutical industry!

>> neurologically deleterious drugs that Big-Pharma pushes

Your opinion of western medicine is abundantly clear, and it is abundantly clear that opinion lacks the objectivity necessary to warrant much credibility.


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kurt]
    #22092678 -

>> Yoga would maybe be maybe the best thing someone traumatized by sexual violence could do, for instance

See, now, I wasn't talking about yoga; I was talking about vague, mystical aphorisms like "dive into the calm depths of Being."  Why are you twisting my words to make it look like I am against yoga and meditation? 

Yoga might have a role in helping somebody traumatized by sexual violence.  I'm not versed enough or experienced enough in yoga to reliably estimate exactly how or to what extent, but at this time I have no reason at all to doubt its usefulness.


>> your discussion of meditation practice is patently a platitude, since that seems to be your point.

You are speaking to someone who spent six years of his life living in monasteries and temples practicing meditation.  During that time, my posts on these boards were lengthy treatises espousing its many benefits, and the many ways in which meditation can profoundly and beneficially alter our experience of the world and our relationships with others.  I was a bit too sure of myself back then, and fancied myself as a kind of teacher, but I had good intentions.  Such is youth.

I have over 14 years experience as a practicing Buddhist. None of this is to say that I am expert meditator or an authority on Buddhism.  Rather, it is to say that my endorsement of Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy is anything but a "patent platitude".  On the contrary, I would be the first to champion its benefits.  Why were you so quick to assume otherwise?


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Ped]
    #22092716 -

There are alternatives, effective alternatives, to SSRIs. They are just far less utilized and there are additional hoops in place which must be jumped through in order to discourage their use. MBCT is one example of a highly effective treatment with long-lasting effects that is seldom endorsed, publicized, or utilized.

I too agree that medical science has it's upsides. I just don't agree that SSRIs are one of them. Which is not to say I disagree with you that SSRIs have saved lives. I do however find them objectionable on multiple grounds.

I don't think there is any infallable corruption in science. Nor do I think there is any infallable good in science. I agree that pin-pointing is a useful tactic to some extent. But that doesn't mean that it's always the most effective. Broad, sweeping marketing is quite effective. Especially for the general public.

I at one point loved to nit-pick everything. I was involved with it on that level. Interested in adding my piece to the larger pie. But now that I've been removed for a while I'm more grassroots. I don't care so much about the details as I do the overarching theme. Depression is rampant. Antidepressants are over prescribed. Findings are not trustworthy. A problem is afoot. Spread the word :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #22092730 -

To be clear, I think SSRI/SNRI medications are, by and large, terrible.  Most antidepressants prior to this class target those same systems, and only a handful target sites other than monoamine transporters, such as mirtazapine.


>> I don't think there is any infallable corruption in science. Nor do I think there is any infallable good in science. I agree that pin-pointing is a useful tactic to some extent.

>> A problem is afoot. Spread the word

Works for me!


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Ped]
    #22092781 -

I'm interested to see the future of neurology. A bit afraid and apprehensive too though. I'm not convinced that the real leaps are going to come in the form of human betterment so much as vast improvements in machine learning.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kickle]
    #22092853 -

Kickle said:
I'm interested to see the future of neurology. A bit afraid and apprehensive too though. I'm not convinced that the real leaps are going to come in the form of human betterment so much as vast improvements in machine learning.


Ah, and just as we humans throw obsolete items carelessly into the landfill, what fate will our machine pupils bestow upon us?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Ped]
    #22092913 -

I am not sure why you would say I was twisting words?

You mentioned these philosophical/meditative utterences as though they are useless:

Quote:
For example, we would not propose that an epileptic might cure their condition by contemplating their "turbulence in the sea of existence," and we would not suggest that a victim of childhood sexual abuse "dive below into the calm depths of Being."  Similarly, the vast majority of every-day people suffering from major depressive disorder are not served by such things, requiring evidence-based psycho- and/or pharmacotherapy to achieve a standard of wellness.


The first example of "stilling the sea of turbulence", as a proposal which is not helping epilepsy, does seem to me, whether purposely or not, to be an overdrawing of literalism. What I was criticizing was the drawing an image of mental-physical connection in that way to reduce it to absurdity.

My point on pragmatism, that things which are said may be found in a significant background aside from the immediate (or whatever use you find them in) was not just an appeal to the east or meditation in general. I would still say that to find these kinds of saying comparable to "propositions", or namely the causal prescriptions of western physicians is misleading.

I am not formally aquainted with buddhism. I was in a seminar and spoke with western Buddhists years ago in college. What I know about Yoga though, I can say for certain, is it is not just physical postures, and at the same time, things that are thought or said are not just inspirations. I wouldn't suggest I know an appropriate place to find anything that is suggested in sutra form, as medical advice, but as a whole yoga is very beneficial to "body and mind".

I would argue that epistemological holism, or pragmatism is something Western people could adopt. This is not any religion or cult, but the philosophical reflection suggested by their own intellectual tradition.

For example I do follow empirical studies of yoga on spinal health and physical therapy routinely. The interchange is very general, and typically doesn't say much, but I give it obligatory interest.

Anyway, examining your basic proposition here might be more worthwhile than trying to draw that connection. You are appealing to the "vast majority of everyday people" other than yourself, and you are claiming what would be appropriate for them. Didn't you already make the appropriation though? I'm not calling for any cultural relativism in a positive sense.

You may be right, I can't think of any practical alternative but to potentially recognize that this is potentially a broader discussion, or one more specific to individual minds. That to me seems appropriate.

I am not sure if the question could be completely covered here without going off topic, but are you certain what you consider as appropriate, is not culturally based, at the same time that it appeals to rigorous basis of what is founded "in trial", as in empirical? The respective dialogue is not impossible, or just relative, whether it is philosophical or intercultural.

Edited by Kurt (08/15/15 02:22 PM)

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kurt]
    #22092996 -

The possible critique of the "empiric school" could be made. From Wiki:

Quote:
The Empiric school said that it was necessary to understand the evident causes of disease, but considered the inquiry after the hidden causes and natural actions to be fruitless, because Nature is incomprehensible. That these things cannot be understood appears from the controversies among philosophers and physicians, and in the way in which the methods of practice differed from place to place, one method being used in Rome, another in Egypt, and another in Gaul. Often too, the causes are evident; as in a wound, and if the evident cause does not suggest a method of curing, then much less so other obscure methods. This being the case, it is much better to seek relief from things certain and tried; that is, from remedies as learned from experience.


In its essential context of practice, empiricism can be seen clearly as a philosophical docrine with relative preferences. Because the essential basis of empiricism as a practice, has been overlooked for a theoretical, abstract knowledge based culture, the causal prescription is something pedagogically pounded in. An unchecked priority of empiric medicine has become biased to form a symptomatology of our medical system. Unfortunately, anything opposed to this conception is called anti-intellectual, or purely academic or obscure, on the other hand.

Empiricism could be considered essentially founded in the trial basis of medicine (3rd century BC) It is as the etymology indicates, the "trial" basis, (the experiment) and in practice, as well as the seemingly authoritative theoretical prescription of causality.

Empiric medicine rides on arisen impressions that must always be met and evoked in a general way, which is quite useful to make everything seem practical, and representative of knowledge, but upon consideration, not something that should necessarily be wholly emphasized, particularly in the context of a practice. For this efficient economy of knowledge to exist in medicine, there must always be pathology; there must be the arisen impression. This this is the rigor of empiric knowledge in one way. In another way, it is insisting on working in the same fluctuating medium, like a game of whack a mole.

Why not find the underlying cause? Why does the representation of authoritative knowledge of health reflected by the way a doctor parses out medicines, these pill form causal prescriptions? Why not embodied health?

I would not say it is just off base, and it is a delicate thing, but there needs to be a rigorous criticism of what today is an industrial complex of science. Clearly with the benefits of empirical practice, there are relative assumptions, we could better call philosophical (choice or preference based).

Unfortunately, we as a broad American culture seem to lose sight of the priorities of practice for notions of theoretical authorities. And we find abstract authority in the last place we should, in empirikos, ie. in the risk of "trial" basis, which is no ground as prescription and pathology, and which I'd argue should be considered in a more open sea of contingence.

First this recognition would call for stepping back, by recognizing what it portions off as "underlying cause", and naturally embodied actions, by certain preferences.

I'd say the criticism is hard to place because it is so deep running. In medicine, it is possible to find and clearly see a certain covert conception of causality, in empirical circumspection, as its prescription. It is a can of worms. The criticism has been made taboo, by a broader discussion, but it can be seen all to clearly. The focus on arisen impressions, as such - the prescription - is not all there is to practically consider.

This is what is what's under everybody's nose, and the dangling carrot for so many people at the same time.

Edited by Kurt (08/15/15 02:53 PM)

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Kurt]
    #22094759 -

Gatekeeping everytime, all medical professions i've sought out. Psychology, psychiatry, medicine.
Don't ever tell a doctor you do your own research.
Don't ever tell a psychologist how you truely feel.
Don't ever admit to a psychiatrist you've already tried all options.

it's like... they never add to their model, it seems they always rely on stuff they learned in school and never think out of the box, it's weird to me :lol:.

I think you're projecting yourself on all researchers, the profession is admirable and wonderful but as you say corrupted/tainted:
-Negative results are not noted.
-How many excerpts i've read where the researchers did not say anything about the raw data.
-If you don't pay, you don't publish. That's so backwards that it weeds out the majority of "genuine" people.
-Three publishing companies (Reed Elsevier, Wiley-Blackwell, and Springer) account for 42 percent of all published articles. This oligopoly has obscenely high profit margins of 30 to 40 percent. That's higher than most of the biggest companies in the world except Pfizer.
-You can't share your work without losing it. When scientists can't get papers from their peers, they have to rely on subscriptions owned by their employer.
Predatory publishers are corrupting open access

So sure, I think it takes a certain character to do research so frankly but if you have to go past all this bullshit, it's going to change you as a person. Not everyone is autonomously selfless.

Also Dr. James "Jeff" Bradstreet ...

Props to you though. Always wanted to do the same but things like that piss me off.

Edited by Beanhead (08/15/15 02:52 PM)

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Re: Depression is just egotism [Re: Beanhead]
    #22094895 -

Quote:
Gatekeeping everytime, all medical professions i've sought out. Psychology, psychiatry, medicine.
Don't ever tell a doctor you do your own research.
Don't ever tell a psychologist how you truely feel.
Don't ever admit to a psychiatrist you've already tried all options.


fuckin' word man. 

They call what is ruining my life "Idiopathic". That's when they say there is authoritatively speaking, "no known cause", to a debilitating condition, and are still pretending they know things that way, based on their general assumptions.

It is misinformation, sorting through needles in a haystack, worthless and misleading one dimensional ascriptions, of what can't be done, or can't be known. I have found it is not right, in at least one manner of speaking.

I think the dimensions of pragmatic discussion are interesting to emphasize, the emphasis on dialogue, but at the same time, that's point where you take things apart. Maybe the last, and least practical thing to do is deconstructive, but it's funny, I find that is the first thing, and most practical thing that we need to do as a culture. Dump out that stewing pot of corruption that goes back through philosophy, an institution, culture, and industry. Western medical science is somehow great, and also completely fucked up.

In the mean time I'll take my bitter droughts, as the philosophers do.

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