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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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A situation involving my father and clinical depression...
    #2538819 - 04/08/04 12:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hi folks.. I feel that everyone's probably gotten to know me a little bit now, and I feel comfortable posting this here, so I'm gonna go ahead and do so.

For the first time in a long while I've managed to have a pretty positive view on things lately. I think, in part, it can be attributed to some recent psychedelic journeys which lifted a lot of "filters" from my view, so to speak. Basically I'm just being less pessimistic and negative for the most part.

The problem is, my father. He suffers from clinical depression, and for a while I thought I did too, but now I am not so sure. He's been very very down lately, he's basically on the verge of suicidal tendencies. His second marriage ended this past winter, and his father died. He's in a very thick funk.. when I see him it's almost like he's just staring into space a lot of the time. It's like he can't escape his inner thoughts.

I really hate seeing him like this. I talk to him about it, and he sounds how I sound when I've been in depressive funks in the past.. very negative about everything, always finding a way to view things negatively even when people are telling me how to fix the problem.

ie,
"I need a new job."
"So look for one"
"I can't, i don't have a car"
"So get a car"
"I can't, I don't have money"
etc. etc.

Anyway, yeah.. my dad doesn't know anything about my drug use.. but I feel that my drug use (mushrooms specifically) have helped me reconnect to my spiritual side a lot, as well as lifted the "funk" of every day life from me. I use them as a spiritual refresher, basically.

Now.. the problem I am faced with is, I don't know whether or not to try to introduce mushrooms to my father.

I mean, if he's talking suicide, then is there really much risk in giving it a shot? What if it works and he realizes that he has things to be happy about, like his two loving children? He can't seem to be happy about anything.

When comparing my life to his, he pointed out that I have a girl who loves me and is willing to start a life with me, etc. etc.

But he feels that he has nothing. And I understand why this view could be developed.. he lives in a trailer in new hampshire, isolated from everyone.

He's asked my girlfriend and I to move in with him, in his spare bedroom, because he can't afford his rent.. but I'm hesitant to take such steps because of aspects of my life that he would not appreciate if he lived in the same trailer as us. (For instance, my girlfriend isn't exactly quiet in bed.. and my dad is a christian who doesn't support the concept of sex before marriage anyway.) Not to mention the drug use.

So.. my question is, has anyone found themselves in a similar position? I don't want my dad to off himself, he's really a wonderful person.. all of my spirituality comes from him.

Should I offer him mushrooms and see what he says? I'm worried he will blow it off without taking into consideration what benefit they could really have for him.

Please guys, I need help here.. I don't know what to do. Or rather, HE needs help.. so help me help him. Please.

-Jim (No, my name isn't really Jacques Cousteau.)


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InvisibleJim
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2538835 - 04/08/04 01:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Man that is a tough one. I think first of all you should have him try a cool conselor(A cool counselor is just someone to talk with, they cant prescribe medication or anything). Introducing your father to shrooms seems like it would be a bad idea, especially if he is really christian. If you are that worried about him being suicidal and all, maybe you should move in with him. If you are only interested in his well being before your own than you should move in.... keep an eye on him and become part of his daily routine. Being a part of his routine will give him some stability and a support network that he can depend on when he is down.


--------------------
Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: Jim]
    #2538869 - 04/08/04 01:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hm. You may be right.

Also: I forgot to mention, he's been to many psychiatrists and counselors, and has tried many different types of anti-depressants.. he always experiences severe side effects that make him want to stop taking them.

This weekend he is going for a 2 hour session at a mental health clinic to be assessed and probably prescribed more anti-depressants that he doesn't really want to take.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2538892 - 04/08/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You might want to post about this in Support Group, too!

Though I leave it here because you spend a lot of time here :wink:

How about you try talking to him about your experience with mushrooms, first? Introduce him to the beneficial side of tripping from your perspective, so that he doesn't just see the mushrooms as a "drug"?

But it's a tricky subject. I don't really know  :crazy:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: trendal]
    #2539647 - 04/08/04 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, it's definitely a touchy area... I dunno, I'll have to think on this one indeed.

Thanks for not moving it :wink:


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2539801 - 04/08/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He's not responding to meds?  If he's reluctant to take them, my guess is that he isn't, or that he isn't being consistant enough for the results.  I'd be sure he follows the daily regimen for at least 30 days...I find it hard to believe anti-deps wouldn't help.  I wonder if there's something in his diet competing for absorption?

Last resort...consider having a little talk about your psychadelic experiences.  Be brave :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: Viaggio]
    #2539839 - 04/08/04 05:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's not that he doesn't respond to them, it's that the side effects are too severe.

I'm thinking about it, but I don't know.

I mean, what if I never suffered from "clinical depression" and he does? You always hear people saying not to take psychedelics if you're depressed...


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OfflineViveka
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2540208 - 04/08/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I mean, what if I never suffered from "clinical depression" and he does? You always hear people saying not to take psychedelics if you're depressed...




Not to seem harsh but the only difference between "depression" and "clinical depression" is that one you can legally get drugs for.

Shame on our medical community for creating this idea of a depression that is somehow seperated from your choices, your ability to act.

I think the reason people say not to take psychadelics when you're depressed is because you will likely be confronted with your own internal dialogues and patterns that are making you feel that way. It may be unpleasant but for someone who seriously wants to break free from it, 'the way out is through'.

Also, your dad has to really want to not be depressed. Just like you have to really want to stop taking heroin if you're sick of being a junkie. Is there any chance your dad is reveling in his misery because in some sad way he's getting off on it? Not to seem perverse or judgemental, but the victim conciousness is deeply engrained in our society. I've had realizations during times that i was "depressed" that i was actually reveling in the sensory experience of feeling 'down and out'. Some people find power in their victimology. Just something to consider I guess.

I hope you can help your dad out. That would be awesome if he opened to the idea of a sacramental cleansing. Since he's "Christian", maybe you could educate him about the historical use of sacraments in all religions and how today's "holy communion" is a watered-down bastardization of a true ritualistic *sacramental* experience invovling entheogens. At least that's my opinion.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: Viveka]
    #2540596 - 04/08/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Not to seem harsh but the only difference between "depression" and "clinical depression" is that one you can legally get drugs for."

That's really not true at all.. I believe the definition of clinical depression is one that is a result of a chemical inbalance in the brain that cannot be corrected without medication.

Also, I can very easily (and legally) get my hands on any number of anti-depressants just by walking into a psychiatrist's office and telling him I'm not feeling good about myself and I'd like to try some medication. Does that mean I'm clinically depressed? Nay.

I truly believe my dad doesn't want to be depressed. To quote him directly, from a conversation I had with him just a few hours ago, "I'm just so sick of this set of emotions.. I want a new set now."

Trust me, he wants to be well.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2540811 - 04/08/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does he drink heavily?

Does he get excersize?

Does he have any relatives that are close?

He probably feels isolated. Maybe something got him down, now he cant get out of his place. I feel this way a lot... emotions are a bitch for me... they have kind of dulled out because of how severely they were effecting me for a while.

Now i have bouts of anxiety, which i think may be PTSD. Post traumatic stress disorder. But... im not quite sure about your dads background. You will have to find some way to connect with him on HIS level... then you can begin to open up ideas to him, to spread and possibly generate new emotional/though patterns in his brain.

Maybe the area sucks for him... maybe he can move somehwere close to you?


--------------------
What?


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2541808 - 04/09/04 01:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Now.. the problem I am faced with is, I don't know whether or not to try to introduce mushrooms to my father.





No no no. Even if you could talk him into it, the last thing you want to give a person in that condition is a mind-altering substance. One should be well balanced mentally before such a thing.

When he really is enjoying his life, what does he like to do? Any hobbies or activities you can arrange for him so he can regain his momentum? I hope you know what I mean by "momentum" in this context. If you are *already moving*, say in a boat for example, it doesn't take nearly as much energy to change course as it does when you are dead in the water ( the doldrums). Get him moving again. Almost anything will suffice, just get some wind back in his sails and he will at least have the opportunity he denied himself to move on.. Does he still have some unfulfilled dreams? Remind him of those and give him a practical first step towards achieving them.

This and everything Zero7a1 said and good luck!


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: Jellric]
    #2542622 - 04/09/04 09:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you are considering shroomie psychedelics, which I wouldn't really recommend because of  the danger of having a bad time, which could worsen his depressive condition. think widely.

But If you still feel determined you should feed him shrooms, I'd very seriously do some research on something more medicinal, therapeutical, more lucid, and controlable like mescaline.
This substance has a history of positive life changing experiences, and of opening people's eyes out of depressive states.
There is also alot less of chance of having a bad trip.

Try and spend more time with him, go out on a father and son activity. Fishing or something :laugh:.  Get him out of his house , and try and not let him be alone too long.


--------------------
Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2542956 - 04/09/04 12:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You answered your own question by stating your Dad's position on "drugs," but 'drug' is a negative word with regard to mushrooms. Mushrooms may indeed contain psilocin/psilocybin, but mushrooms are seen much more accurately in terms of 'medicine' or even as 'sacrament' than as 'drugs,' in terms of their effects on individuals.

Given the above position, does your statement connecting your Dad's faith as Christian and his opposition to 'drugs' also include mushrooms? Do you know for certain, or are you assuming? I mean, how old is your Dad? Did you ever ask him if he used psychedelics back in the day? Sometimes people get really conservative with age, and then they bury those experiences and never let on to their kids about their own past experiences - especially if they've come to be ashamed of them.

Suicidally oriented adults would be in a high risk group for 'psychedelic therapy,' anyway, and would require a guide with at least as much lifetime experience as they have. In other words, someone at least as old as he is. You would not have that experience, nor are you experienced with working with depressed-suicidal individuals. This is therapy and one does not, even when trained, do therapy with one's own family members. Firstly, a parent is not likely going to take guidance from a much younger person, let alone his own son. Secondly, your own use of mushrooms would probably just register shock from your Dad. How old are you chronologically AND how old do you think you seem to be in your Dad's subjectivity? Probably years younger than you actually are. It is not the mushroom alone, but how an experienced guide can assist the individual who is undergoing the mushroom experience.

Just a few things to think about. Lastly, do not assume that all Christians do not use psychedelic sacraments. The Native American Church embraces Peyote as the Body of Christ, and certain Gnostic Christians utilize Mushrooms as Sacraments as well, and though minorities in Christendom, Christians nevertheless.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemonolith4
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2543881 - 04/09/04 04:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

what about marijuana?? Maybe that would make him giggle?
Get him stoned and put something funny on T.V
I personally think that people delude themselves when it comes to mushrooms being "spiritual".
I just believe it's all to do with how you interperate the strange effects of the psilocybe.
I think some people like to think mushrooms are spiritual because all you have to do is eat them and think about it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: monolith4]
    #2546936 - 04/10/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Mushrooms are fungi, not beings, not "spiritual" because spiritual is not a material quality. Spiritual concerns spirit, and spirit is an ancient word for what we mean by consciousness or awareness. Devils and demons are spiritual beings (by definition), so spiritual does not necessarily mean 'Good.' 'Holy Spirit,' or Sacred Consciousness DOES mean Goodness, and 'Sacred Mushrooms' are those mushrooms which can be used in the service of Goodness, as a Sacramental aid to one's Sacred Consciousness. Substances are neither good or evil. Those conditions depend upon the intentionality of their use.

Giggling is cute...and funny...if one is not suicidally depressed. Marijuana does not positively treat clinical depression, in fact it makes it worse or even brings it on. Of course, that doesn't stop habitual users from using. Addiction is not logical.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblebert
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: monolith4]
    #2547076 - 04/10/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Monolith, even if mushrooms aren't 'spiritual' (whatever that means...), they are still very powerful and you can experience reality in such a way as to reevaluate what you consider to be important or not. From the way you speak, I'd venture to say you've never taken a higher dose of mushrooms in a dark room. Also, marijuana would not be a good thing for him if he is already depressed as it will give him a crutch to fall on and he'll be even less able and motivated to get himself out of his rut. Jacque, be careful about revealing your drug use...if he views it as a very negative thing, the 'bad' news might be enough to push him over the edge. Just my 2 cents.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinemonolith4
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: bert]
    #2548214 - 04/11/04 07:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I have tripped in the dark on high dosage, and I felt there was alot of weird spiritual stuff,I even felt that my whole life was being watched by someone else from behind my eyes.
But I just don't really believe any of it when I stop tripping.
Ayway, I hope his father is not selfish enough to kill himself.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2551970 - 04/12/04 06:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hey jc...
so your dad is maybe in his mid-40s to mid-50s?
rough deal...
losing a parent, losing a spouse...
that's depressing even for somebody who doesn't have a biochemical predisposition to depression... if ya knnow what i mean...
how to cope, why to live another day?
tell him you love him...
tell him you want him to be here sharing this planet with you...
tell him his presence matter...
& tell him to hang in there, 'cause the pain of the loss will dimiinish with time...
that said, prescription drugs, well --- they do have their uses (especially for people with body chemistry tending towards depressive states...) BUT --- it can take months, oreven years, to find the drug that works, and the dose that works, forrr a given individual; & this if the "patient" is capable of self-observation per internal states, and is capable of relating this information to his physician, and that the doc is listening... whew, ya wonder how anybody "gets better" with these mood-elevators... and, to be sure, some patients don't have months or years to adjust, they are hurting NOW dammit...
hurting now...
but, time heals...
so, the object is to make sure that your dad has time...
whoa...
anyways, bsides,"drugs" from a doctor...
there are ways (alternative/supplemental/complementary/whatever) including herbs, vitamins, amino acids, hormones, etc...
as to psychedelics --- it is unfortunate that for decades research into the possible theraputic uses of these powerful plants & chemicals has been pretty much at a standstill... there have bee a very few mental health care professionals who have dared to work with these substances, and training and experiences have to be done quietly (for fear of guv-busies locking up patient & doctor --- a sad state pf affairs, to be sure...)
some work was done in the 50s & 60s, but not much since then... you can find some stuff from the "legal era" & some from the "underground era" of psychedelic drug research, if you poke around - grof, stolaroff, the shulgins, masters & houston, the spring grove experiment, etc...
~
live & love...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2552367 - 04/12/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

An afterthought that dovetails from gnrm23:
My divorce plunged me into Clinical Depression, at times with Psychotic Features (e.g., "this is not happening...") The prescription drugs Deseryl and Atavan wasted me so I stopped them immediately. What DID work rather well was smoking a bowl or two of Passion Flower (Passiflora Incarnata) that I had rubbed through a juice strainer. Not only did it produce a marijuana-like high for an hour, but it enabled sleep and best of all - it had an anti-depressant effect that worked IMMEDIATELY and which lasted for 24 hours. I tested the anti-depressant effect by intentionally bringing up some of the MOST upsetting aspects of my divorce, and the painful emotional reaction was very very diminished.

The Passion Flower was not habit-forming. I used it only when things got really bad, but that's my nature anyway. It is legal, cheap ($1.50 an oz.), smells and tastes a bit like low-grade cannabis - not nasty at all, and found at any health food store. It contains Harmine and Harmaline in small amounts - both psychedelic actually (once called Telepathine because of supposed enhanced telepathy that resulted from its use). I have never brewed it as tea, so I can't comment. Neither have I encapsulated it. I still use it on occasion BUT - because it is an MAO inhibitor, certain things like chocolate and especially red wine should be avoided in conjunction with it (my Lady and I once forgot this, drank wine, and lay stuporous til 3 in the morning, with eyes open, probably in a semi hypotensive (low blood pressure) crisis. ALSO - if one is currently using cannabis (your Dad probably isn't) it doesn't work. I've given it to cannabis users and little if anything happens. It seems that the receptor sites are monopolized by THC present. Perhaps your Dad would consider trying it. Herbals work if one's system is uncluttered by pharmaceuticals. As I write, I've taken two Valerian capsules because I fell asleep for 2 hours earlier and I won't otherwise be able to sleep til way late. Probably gonna take a bit of Passiflora soon also. Pass on the info to your Dad.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: A situation involving my father and clinical depression... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2560251 - 04/14/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hope yr da's OK...
if he is bookish, can lay on some titles for ya...
if the herb or health-food store trips sound like a possibility (ya don't hafta smoke passionflower - ya can take it as a tea just fine...) -- there's a dozen herbs that have potential...
and certain vitamins & amino acids & whatnot can have noticable mood-lifting properties...
~
~
& now, an old story:
there once was a shah, who, seeing the way the world turned, commanded his vizier to fashion for his master a device which would be able to raise his spirits when feeling sad, and temper his exuberance when feeling on top of the world...
the vizier went into his laboratory & crafted a royal ring, & presented it to the shah, who read thereon the inscribed legend: "this too shall pass".
~
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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