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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24207092 - 03/31/17 01:13 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I just made the most amazing batch of pot brownies... Too bad I can't share them with you fellas, while espousing bold and unfounded postulations about the future.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24207372 - 03/31/17 06:52 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I love waking up to find that people have destroyed all of the arguments that they've assigned to me throughout the night. 

Maybe it's time we named a new straw man king?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24208154 - 03/31/17 12:59 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
This started because he complained that cops can not do their jobs and still collect their pensions.  I attributed that to collective bargaining.



But it's actually attributable to Supreme Court decisions:

DeShaney v. Winnebago County
Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales



You're kinda missing everything tonight.  Those have nothing to do with pensions.  Those are about the point made before that where I said that you can't sue the cops for not doing their jobs.



I’m missing the point?  Can you please help us understand why a cop who isn't guilty of a crime because of Supreme Court decision should lose his pension?  I'm not seeing how keeping a pension is attributable to collective bargaining.


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
The city is part of that bargaining process. They should have struck a better deal.



Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power.  When it's equally uneven the other way, you're fine with it.



"Equally uneven the other way"?  Are you serious?



Falcon, with all due respect, you seem completely lost in this discussion.



I’m the lost one?  Do you seriously think a city negotiating with the teacher's union is the equivalent of a worker negotiating with his boss?


Quote:

Enlil said:
That is not what I was referring to with "if only that's how it really worked" though. 

He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few.  I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground.  That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."



Can you please help us understand whether you mean it doesn't help the many because there's currently not enough people in collectives today?  Or because collectives don't have power?  Or what do you mean?


Quote:

Enlil said:
I love waking up to find that people have destroyed all of the arguments that they've assigned to me throughout the night. 

Maybe it's time we named a new straw man king?



Can you please help us understand the straw men since you went to bed?


--------------------
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208198 - 03/31/17 01:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not seeing how keeping a pension is attributable to collective bargaining.


Lol, really?  Collective bargaining is why that pension exists.  It's how the terms of that pension plan were decided.  How do you not know this?
Quote:


I’m the lost one?  Do you seriously think a city negotiating with the teacher's union is the equivalent of a worker negotiating with his boss?



No.  Do you seriously think I said that?  Or are you just creating another strawman?
Quote:


Can you please help us understand whether you mean it doesn't help the many because there's currently not enough people in collectives today?  Or because collectives don't have power?  Or what do you mean?



Neither of those, really.  I mean that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the few at the expense of the many.  In some cases, the few is the entire collective.  In other cases, the few is the people who lead that collective.  In still other cases, the few is the business owners.  The many is everyone else, or in some cases, a subset of that group. 

If you're looking for specifics, we have to look at a particular collective bargaining process.

Quote:


Can you please help us understand the straw men since you went to bed?


I can't help you understand the straw men...I didn't create them.  They aren't mine.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24208310 - 03/31/17 01:56 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Collective bargaining is why that pension exists.  It's how the terms of that pension plan were decided.  How do you not know this?



Of course I know that.  That's yet ANOTHER argument from you in favor of collective bargaining.

But are you seriously pretending you didn't know that Wooof was NOT complaining about cops getting a pension?  He was complaining about cops who didn't do their jobs getting a pension.  They have the courts to thank for that. 


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I’m the lost one?  Do you seriously think a city negotiating with the teacher's union is the equivalent of a worker negotiating with his boss?




No.  Do you seriously think I said that?  Or are you just creating another strawman?



Wooof said "The city is part of that bargaining process. They should have struck a better deal." You responded with "Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power."

What did you mean by "that same argument" if not that the city had unequal negotiating power like the worker???


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few.  I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground.  That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."



Can you please help us understand whether you mean it doesn't help the many because there's currently not enough people in collectives today?  Or because collectives don't have power?  Or what do you mean?




Neither of those, really.  I mean that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the few at the expense of the many.  In some cases, the few is the entire collective.  In other cases, the few is the people who lead that collective.  In still other cases, the few is the business owners.  The many is everyone else, or in some cases, a subset of that group. 

If you're looking for specifics, we have to look at a particular collective bargaining process.



If it helps the entire collective, that's the "many" in the vast majority of cases.  And as wooof already pointed out, the "many" are helped even when the leaders of the collective also help themselves.


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you please help us understand the straw men since you went to bed?



I can't help you understand the straw men...I didn't create them.  They aren't mine.



What is the straw man you claim was made after you went to bed?  (I'm sure you knew that was the question, Mr Semantics man)


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24208351 - 03/31/17 02:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I love waking up to find that people have destroyed all of the arguments that they've assigned to me throughout the night. 

Maybe it's time we named a new straw man king?




I thought your arguments were quite clear. I don't even understand the cause for confusion. If I am so off the mark, then you should probably take more care expressing yourself.

Calling me the name straw man king is pretty hilarious. I don't need straw men, and have no desire to use them. I want to be right more than I want to 'win' lol


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24208355 - 03/31/17 02:14 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Damnit... I wanna respond to these posts, but I can't do it in my phone lol


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24208391 - 03/31/17 02:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
If I am so off the mark, then you should probably take more care expressing yourself.



^^THIS^^^


Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Damnit... I wanna respond to these posts, but I can't do it in my phone lol



Do it when you get back to your computer!  Your handling of Enlil has been quite entertaining!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24208416 - 03/31/17 02:31 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Calling me the name straw man king is pretty hilarious.




Who called you that?  Or is that just a straw man?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24208429 - 03/31/17 02:39 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Calling me the name straw man king is pretty hilarious.




Who called you that?  Or is that just a straw man?




Maybe I missed something here.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208434 - 03/31/17 02:41 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He was complaining about cops who didn't do their jobs getting a pension.  They have the courts to thank for that. 


Source?  Those cases you cited had nothing to do with pensions.
Quote:


If it helps the entire collective, that's the "many" in the vast majority of cases.  And as wooof already pointed out, the "many" are helped even when the leaders of the collective also help themselves.


That's the "many" in your rhetoric, maybe.  You can't ask me what I mean by "many" and then tell me what I actually mean by "many."  At this point, I don't even understand what it is you're trying to argue, frankly.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208753 - 03/31/17 04:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Collective bargaining is why that pension exists.  It's how the terms of that pension plan were decided.  How do you not know this?



Of course I know that.  That's yet ANOTHER argument from you in favor of collective bargaining.

But are you seriously pretending you didn't know that Wooof was NOT complaining about cops getting a pension?  He was complaining about cops who didn't do their jobs getting a pension.  They have the courts to thank for that.



Source?  Those cases you cited had nothing to do with pensions.



That's what I just said.  Collective bargaining is to thank for pensions, and the courts are to thank for it to be ok for cops not to do their job.  If it were a crime not to protect citizens, states could withhold pensions from cops that didn't protect citizens.  But it's not a crime because of the courts.


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wooof said "The city is part of that bargaining process. They should have struck a better deal." You responded with "Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power."

What did you mean by "that same argument" if not that the city had unequal negotiating power like the worker???







No response?


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If it helps the entire collective, that's the "many" in the vast majority of cases.  And as wooof already pointed out, the "many" are helped even when the leaders of the collective also help themselves.



That's the "many" in your rhetoric, maybe.  You can't ask me what I mean by "many" and then tell me what I actually mean by "many."



No, I'm not telling you what you mean by "many", I'm telling you if you don't think the collective helps its members in the vast majority of cases, you're wrong. You've already given many examples of how the collective helps its members, and more importantly, unions wouldn't exist without the approval of at least 50% of its members.  So it's not "rhetoric".


Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What is the straw man you claim was made after you went to bed?  (I'm sure you knew that was the question, Mr Semantics man)







No response?


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24208765 - 03/31/17 04:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Maybe it's time we named a new straw man king?



Calling me the name straw man king is pretty hilarious. I don't need straw men, and have no desire to use them.



Who called you that?  Or is that just a straw man?



Maybe I missed something here.



He's playing a semantics game with you.  He didn't call you a straw man king, he asked if he should call you a straw man king.

The answer, of course, is "no" because he never even answered the question of "What is the straw man you claim?"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208787 - 03/31/17 04:59 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

At the risk of setting up a strawman, I'll just say, I think he was referring to you, Falcon.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24208793 - 03/31/17 05:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
At the risk of setting up a strawman, I'll just say, I think he was referring to you, Falcon.



Perhaps, although his post was directed at you.

Either way, he never answered my question of what straw man argument he was referring to.  Still waiting...


--------------------
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208798 - 03/31/17 05:07 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

So you don't have a source?  Or you think your sources support your claim?  I'm trying to figure out where we stand on your claim that the courts are the ones responsible for the fact that cops can keep their pension even if they don't do their jobs.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
    #24208823 - 03/31/17 05:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So you don't have a source?  Or you think your sources support your claim?  I'm trying to figure out where we stand on your claim that the courts are the ones responsible for the fact that cops can keep their pension even if they don't do their jobs.



I already explained:

"Collective bargaining is to thank for pensions, and the courts are to thank for it to be ok for cops not to do their job.  If it were a crime not to protect citizens, states could withhold pensions from cops that didn't protect citizens.  But it's not a crime because of the courts."

Do you not follow the logic, or do you see a flaw in it?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208828 - 03/31/17 05:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I don't follow the logic, if there is any.  In an attempt to actually understand your point, and possibly address it, I have the following questions that you can answer if you want:

1. Do you believe that criminal conduct by police officers makes it legal to withhold their pensions?  If so, why do you believe this?
2. Do you believe that, absent criminal conduct by police officers, it is illegal to withhold pensions?  If so, why do you believe this?
3. Is there some statute that you're relying on? If so, what is it?

I'm having a hard time figuring out why you believe that a pension created and defined by a contract is somehow affected by whether or not the cops commit a crime.  I'm also trying to figure out why you think those cases determine whether or not it is a crime for police not to do their jobs, but that's a bit tangential.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24208849 - 03/31/17 05:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
1. Do you believe that criminal conduct by police officers makes it legal to withhold their pensions?  If so, why do you believe this?



It depends on the state.  Here's why.

Quote:

Enlil said:
2. Do you believe that, absent criminal conduct by police officers, it is illegal to withhold pensions?  If so, why do you believe this?



I don't know.  But probably not because I think California is withhold pensions.

Quote:

Enlil said:
3. Is there some statute that you're relying on? If so, what is it?



See #1 above.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm having a hard time figuring out why you believe that a pension created and defined by a contract is somehow affected by whether or not the cops commit a crime.



See #1 above.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24208858 - 03/31/17 05:28 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, I think we're getting somewhere.  Now, since your answer to #2 is "probably not", it sounds like you're open to the possibility that pensions can be withheld for other reasons, at least as far as statutory law is concerned.

If that is true, then the terms of a collective bargaining agreement can be such that a pension can be withheld for an employee not doing his job.  Would you agree with this statement?


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