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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206711 - 03/30/17 09:36 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: it's actually attributable to Supreme Court decisions:
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales
Quote:
Enlil said: Those have nothing to do with pensions. Those are about the point made before that where I said that you can't sue the cops for not doing their jobs.
Correct. And it also solidifies the point that collective bargaining helps the worker, which is a point you've since agreed with.
I'll take your word that when you said "the benefits are for a very few" you actually meant "the benefits are for the entire collective". But you certainly could have been clearer on that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/30/17 09:41 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206714 - 03/30/17 09:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lol, the arbitration process is the product of collective bargaining
Falcon, being sued for civil rights violations has nothing to do with collective bargaining
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206717 - 03/30/17 09:40 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think your take on the merits of collective bargaining depends on your ideals.
Do you think having a middle class is a good thing?
Do you support concentration of power?
Do you believe workers should not have the power to negotiate the terms of their employment?
Do you believe business owners should receive 500X+ the fruits of their worker's labor?
Essentially, do you believe that all people who aren't business owners, or highly specialized, should earn roughly the same wage?
Unionized welders make $45/hour, and non-union welders make $12-25/hour.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206720 - 03/30/17 09:41 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Lol, the arbitration process is the product of collective bargaining
Falcon, being sued for civil rights violations has nothing to do with collective bargaining
The city is part of that bargaining process. They should have struck a better deal.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206725 - 03/30/17 09:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure Enlil's now agreeing collectivization helps the worker. He's arguing it hurts people outside the collective. Though I'm with you that the benefit to the worker generally outweighs the harm to others.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206727 - 03/30/17 09:45 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power. When it's equally uneven the other way, you're fine with it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206731 - 03/30/17 09:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power.
Of course.
Quote:
Enlil said: When it's equally uneven the other way, you're fine with it.
"Equally uneven the other way"? Are you serious?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206734 - 03/30/17 09:48 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Falcon, with all due respect, you seem completely lost in this discussion.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#24206737 - 03/30/17 09:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I'm pretty sure Enlil's now agreeing collectivization helps the worker greatly. He's arguing it hurts people outside the collective. Though I'm with you that the benefit to the worker generally outweighs the harm to others.
It benefits more than the worker. It benefits every business that worker patronizes. It benefits their children. It contributes to the fluidity of finances within our economy.
If everyone took part in collective bargaining, our economy would be better, our education would be better (because parents would have more time to spend with their children). Hell, a case could be made that our democracy would be better, both due to better education, and the fact that as people exercise democracy in the workplace (via bargaining), they might better understand how to participate in the political process which governs their country.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206741 - 03/30/17 09:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Funny, if I made that same argument that a worker should have made a better deal with his boss, you'd give me rhetoric about unequal bargaining power. When it's equally uneven the other way, you're fine with it.
I prefer the power to be in the hands of the many, rather than the few.
The workers, rather than the boss.
Decentralized power is always preferable.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206744 - 03/30/17 09:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: It benefits more than the worker. It benefits every business that worker patronizes. It benefits their children. It contributes to the fluidity of finances within our economy.
If everyone took part in collective bargaining, our economy would be better, our education would be better (because parents would have more time to spend with their children). Hell, a case could be made that our democracy would be better, both due to better education, and the fact that as people exercise democracy in the workplace (via bargaining), they might better understand how to participate in the political process which governs their country.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206745 - 03/30/17 09:52 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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If only that's how it really worked.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] 1
#24206748 - 03/30/17 09:54 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: If only that's how it really worked.
Enlighten me.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24206759 - 03/30/17 10:01 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
It benefits more than the worker. It benefits every business that worker patronizes. It benefits their children. It contributes to the fluidity of finances within our economy.
If everyone took part in collective bargaining, our economy would be better, our education would be better (because parents would have more time to spend with their children). Hell, a case could be made that our democracy would be better, both due to better education, and the fact that as people exercise democracy in the workplace (via bargaining), they might better understand how to participate in the political process which governs their country.
If only that's how it really worked.
Enlighten me.
Allow me:

Back when workers had more power, EVERYONE got more money. After the decline of the union in the 80's NOT everyone got more money. 
Edit: Enlil informed me I quoted the wrong post. Here is what he was responding to:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I prefer the power to be in the hands of the many, rather than the few.
The workers, rather than the boss.
Decentralized power is always preferable.
If only that's how it really worked.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/31/17 12:37 AM)
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206766 - 03/30/17 10:06 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't mind you getting confused, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't construct your quotes so that my statement appears to be in response to a different post than I responded to. It's intellectually dishonest and cheap.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206776 - 03/30/17 10:10 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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My apologies, I thought that was the post you were talking about. My bad.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206780 - 03/30/17 10:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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The website has a function where you can click on the name after the "re:" in the subject and it will take you to the very post it is in response to.
Are you going to fix your post?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil]
#24206794 - 03/30/17 10:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sure, I'll fix it, but please clear one thing up for me first:
I thought you were arguing against Wooof's point that the collective also helps people outside the collective and that's what you meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
Do you actually agree with wooof's point, or do you think that's not how it really works?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24206802 - 03/30/17 10:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think that collective bargaining helps the nation in the same way it did before the world got smaller. There was a time when it did, but that time is gone and most likely never to return. That is not what I was referring to with "if only that's how it really worked" though.
He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few. I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground. That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Hillary 'Turns Over' E-mail Server and Thumbnail drive to FBI [Re: Enlil] 1
#24206848 - 03/30/17 10:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I don't think that collective bargaining helps the nation in the same way it did before the world got smaller. There was a time when it did, but that time is gone and most likely never to return. That is not what I was referring to with "if only that's how it really worked" though.
He argues that collective bargaining puts the power in the hands of the many and not the few. I think that is naïve as fuck and doesn't represent the reality on the ground. That is what I meant by "If only that's how it really worked."
Are you referring to the big bad union bosses having too much power?
They may line their own pockets, but they are still empowering the many against the few. That's why those union welders make double.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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